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On this episode of the Less Stressed Life, I'm joined by Deb Hadley, founder of KT Humble Hearts, who shares her heartbreaking story of losing both of her children just nine months apart. Deb's story is incredibly moving, and I really wanted to share it with you. We talk about how she found hope and purpose through her grief and why she now helps others who are going through difficult losses. We also get into the difference between grief and mourning, how grief can show up in situations like estrangement, and why healing doesn't mean forgetting or moving on. Plus, Deb shares how joy and sadness can exist together and some ways we can better support people who are grieving.

KEY TAKEAWAYS:
❤️ Deb's story of loss, love, and hope
🌿 Understanding grief vs. mourning
💔 Grieving relationships and estrangement
🫶 Supporting someone through grief
✨ Finding joy alongside sadness
🌱 Growing around grief instead of moving on

ABOUT GUEST:
Deb Hadley is the Founder and Executive Director of KT Humble Hearts, a nonprofit dedicated to providing hope and healing to those who are grieving. A certified grief coach, speaker, and author, Deb compassionately walks alongside individuals and families, helping them find hope, healing, and purpose after loss.

WHERE TO FIND GUEST:
Website: https://kthumblehearts.org
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kthumblehearts22/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@KThumblehearts

SPONSOR:
Thank you to Jigsaw Health for being such a great sponsor. 💛 I’m sharing some pretty cool health pearls 💎 about vitamin K2, a misunderstood nutrient that goes way beyond 🦴 bone health, including its role in helping calcium get where it needs to go, ❤️ cardiovascular health, 🥾 performance and more. Save 10% on any Jigsaw Health order with code LESSSTRESSED10.

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🍽️ Over restriction is dead
🥑 Whole food is soul food and fed is best
🔄 Sustainable, synergistic nutrition is in (the opposite of whack-a-mole supplementation & supplement graveyards)
🤝 You don’t have to figure it out alone
❤️ Do your best and leave the rest

WHERE TO FIND CHRISTA:
Website: https://www.christabiegler.com/
Instagram: @anti.inflammatory.nutritionist
Podcast Instagram: @lessstressedlife
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@lessstressedlife
Quick Links: https://www.christabiegler.com/links
Cortisol Shop: https://christabiegler.com/cortisol-shop

✨Grab Cortisol Reset here: https://christabiegler.com/cortisol-a

❓Questions for Christa? Submit them here: https://www.christabiegler.com/questions

TRANSCRIPT:

[00:00:00] Deb Hadley: So I really questioned her on that, and she said it depends on how, what grief is," because, see, grief is in two ways. Grief, grief can be the heavy boulder that we carry behind us the pain, the agony the debilitating grief. Or grief can become where their love grows so deep inside of us that they're right here and they move forward with us out of love, not out of pain.

[00:00:25] Deb Hadley: And she said, "So my kids are here. They move forward with me out of love. I'm not debilitated anymore because of their loss, but I am sad." And that was it. And so I had to think about that. I'm like, I'm not painfully grieving my children, but I am sad, But sad and joy can walk along the same path, and often when people are grieving or they have loss, they feel like they can't laugh again.

[00:00:53] Deb Hadley: They can't smile. They can't have a good life. How could they have a good life? Because joy and sadness walk along hand in hand.

Meet Deb Hadley

[00:01:01] Christa Biegler, RD: Welcome to the Less Stressed Life podcast. I'm your host, Christa Biegler, and we're in the ninth year of this show, and I just want to say thank you so much for being here. I'm personally in a season of wanting to pay it forward, to share everything I have learned from our clients over the last decade so that I can share it with as many people as possible in the next years, in the next decade.

[00:01:25] Christa Biegler, RD: I'd love to hear from you about what you want more of in the future, in the coming months of this podcast. Feel free to drop me a line at christabiegler.com/questions. Now, on to the show

[00:01:37] Christa Biegler, RD: all right. Today on the Less Stressed Life, I am joined by Deb Hadley, who's the founder and executive director of KT Humble Hearts, a nonprofit dedicated to providing hope and healing to those who are grieving. A certified grief coach, speaker, and author, Deb compassionately walks alongside individuals and families, helping them find hope, healing, and purpose after a loss.

[00:02:00] Christa Biegler, RD: And how did Deb get here? My sister-in-law one day had posted a journal that she was doing online on Instagram, and I saw it and I thought, "Oh..." As I'm looking at it, we can't really see it in the screen. I saw it and I thought, "Oh, that's really lovely. That's a very nice journal. Where did you get that?"

[00:02:23] Christa Biegler, RD: And then she may have responded that it was your journal. She didn't say much else. Maybe she did. I don't quite re-remember at that time. And then not too long later, the journal arrived in the mail from her, which was really fun and lovely and special. So I listened to a couple other another podcast with Deb on it, and then Deb she has been in and out of Helen, my sister-in-law's, life through different things, and Helen was recently on.

[00:02:51] Christa Biegler, RD: I don't know where you will all be in the actual publishing of the episode. So I think it's fun to tell sort of the origin story 'cause people used to ask me, "How do you find these people?" And so I think it's fun to share that life is just serendipitous like that. But I felt like I needed to talk to Deb as well, so welcome to the show, Deb.

[00:03:08] Deb Hadley: Thank you. I appreciate it. Love being here. 

[00:03:11] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. All right. So let's talk about how you got here, and I've been thinking about you a lot before you arrived here. I'm from a very small town in a very small Midwestern place, and the community really looks out for each other.

[00:03:27] Christa Biegler, RD: And so I was recently at a funeral of a family, and I just was thinking of you the whole time. So I wanted you to share sort of your story, whatever parts you would like to share about your story to get us started, and then we'll talk through the, all of these things. 

[00:03:45] Deb Hadley: Sounds good. We'll just let it flow.

[00:03:47] Deb Hadley: Yeah. Yeah. My story. So I'm a, teacher. I'm an elementary school teacher and coach. I worked for the 4-H program. I was an extension educator, a program coordinator. And so to get to this journey of doing grief support this is absolutely no place where I ever thought I would be.

[00:04:03] Deb Hadley: But it's been the most fulfilling thing I've ever done in my whole entire life. But I got here not because of choice. I got here because of deep, incredible pain. 

Faith Crisis

[00:04:13] Deb Hadley: So just backing up just a step we're part of a mixed family, his, hers, and ours.

[00:04:19] Deb Hadley: So in our his, hers, and ours little family my husband and I, Scott and I have been now married for 32 years. So but I had my daughter Kaylee is from my first marriage, and so she was five years old when I divorced her dad. And so that's an important part of the story.

[00:04:36] Deb Hadley: Scott had two children. Jesse was seven, and Josh was nine. And then together we have Tyler. So I'm the mother of Kaylee and Tyler, and the step-mom or bonus mom of Josh and Jesse. So that's just how we are. And, So when Kaylee was 24 years old, at 24 years old she was a schoolteacher down in southern Minnesota, and she was engaged to be married, and we were planning a wedding.

[00:05:05] Deb Hadley: And on June 5th, 2013, was her last teacher workshop day. She was supposed to come home live with us, teach summer school right in Sleepy Eye, Minnesota, in the small community that we lived in. And that night she didn't come home, and she died from something called SUDEP, sudden unexpected death from epilepsy.

[00:05:27] Deb Hadley: And when Kaylee was 21 years old, she was diagnosed with epilepsy, and when she was 24, we had just gone to a very well-known hospital and did a lot of testing. And they ended up changing her medication, and we just felt like we had this. She had grand mal seizures, and so we just felt like we had it under control.

[00:05:50] Deb Hadley: She had just changed the medication. For three months I didn't think she had any seizures, and then on this particular night day, when she was supposed to be coming home, she didn't come home and she ended up passing away from something called SUDEP, sudden unexpected death from epilepsy.

[00:06:05] Deb Hadley: And it was sudden. It was unexpected. It's when a perfectly normal person whose seizures are controlled by medication, they died for no reason. They go into a seizure, and they die of cardiac arrest because they don't come out of it. And, a blessing in my life is right before we went to change doctors and dig into this deeper we were on a vacation, and she had a grand mal seizure.

[00:06:29] Deb Hadley: And Kaylee was getting married, and I knew she wanted children. And I was so afraid that she would have a child, and she had nocturnal seizures, that she would wake up in the middle of the night and go into a seizure and drop one of her kids. And when we were on this particular vacation, she had a seizure right next to me in the car.

[00:06:46] Deb Hadley: And so I just said, Kaylee something's not right." I said we have got to go and We have the best hospitals right here in Minnesota, so we have got to, and it's the Mayo Clinic. And I have nothing against the Mayo Clinic, so I'll just say what it is.

[00:06:59] Deb Hadley: We, it, we have the best hospital in the whole wide world right there, so you would just think that, let's go and let's figure out what is going on, and that's exactly what we did. And I said, "Kaylee." I go, "If you would die of a seizure," I said, " I'd spend the rest of my life living in regret.

[00:07:13] Deb Hadley: Because I didn't do everything in my power to save you, and she said, "Mom, if I died of a seizure, I wouldn't feel anything. Nothing. So just know that I would be in heaven looking down saying, wow." So I have that reassurance that she didn't feel anything. And I don't want to scare anyone with epilepsy either because I do think epilepsy is very much treated.

[00:07:34] Deb Hadley: But I have to tell you, Christa before I knew that she had passed away, we were driving down there, and I was in the car when we had gotten the phone call from a police officer asking me if I was Kayley's mother, and then telling, proceeding to tell me that she didn't make it. And I remember in my head how dark that was, and, you just can't...

[00:07:53] Deb Hadley: she didn't make it. How do you go from talking to someone every day or seeing someone, and then they're just gone? And it was the time that boy, my faith was really tested. I'm Catholic. I've grown up Catholic. I'm a cradle Catholic. I went to church on Sundays. Really realized that I'm on the surface just showed up and did everything I thought that I was supposed to do.

[00:08:14] Deb Hadley: Very rule-based, and at that time, I remember I got very dark, and I really questioned whether this was true. You know- ... 'cause I grew up in it and I just followed what my parent... I took on my parents' faith. I didn't find my own. I didn't have a relationship at all, and I questioned whether it was true.

[00:08:32] Deb Hadley: I questioned where she was, if God knew, if it was true, if He knew this was happening. And then I got into a really dark place in that I was being punished and that I deserved to be punished because I left the marriage. And there were poor choices that I made throughout, but I just thought, good things happen to good people, and bad things happen to bad people, and therefore I'm a bad people.

[00:08:56] Deb Hadley: And so now I'm questioning my faith, and now I'm condemning myself, and I'm really taking on, as I'm allowing the liar to empower me, and I'm taking on the lies. And so I'm starting to fall apart, but there was still part of me that knew that God was- Somewhere in the middle of all this, and I was...

[00:09:14] Deb Hadley: In my grief, I just couldn't eat, couldn't sleep. I had so much shame, guilt, regret. I would've, could've, should've, if only. It physically was destroying me mentally. It was ruining my life emotionally, my family. I was really an implosion. A very hard place to be in. And I would be kneeling in the spare bedroom with my head against the bed and just praying to God to help me to send a sign, to help me, to I'm not gonna survive this.

[00:09:42] Deb Hadley: and I think what happens is when you grieve I think in life we all have grief, and grief comes from other sources other than death. And when you just push it all down, and I pushed down my divorce, and I pushed down a lot of things, and I just tried to be a good person and have people see me and have people like me and do things right, and I never grieved that and the hard things,

[00:10:06] Deb Hadley: and the guilt from Keely not living with her dad. So I started to grieve that. I went all the way back. And so not only was I grieving her, I was a bad mom, I was a bad person, just, it was pretty horrible. And about six weeks later a woman and I did send you my book, and my book goes with that journal, by the way.

[00:10:26] Deb Hadley: But six weeks later, God sent me... There was a woman who came to my house. Her name was Chris. She was an acquaintance. I knew her from the 4H program, and she simply said, "The Lord's asked me to come and pray with you. Do you accept?" And I just remember, like- She was so different. She was a very strong Catholic woman.

[00:10:46] Deb Hadley: I thought she was perfect, and one of those holy people. And boy, I needed her to be different, and I needed to be her to be one of those holy people, 'cause I just felt like she was an angel standing in front of me. And what she brought to me was that I was able to spill on her all my shame, guilt, regret, everything.

[00:11:05] Deb Hadley: She gave me this safe place and just shared with me how much God loved me. And she also said, she goes, "Oh, so you're not perfect." And I was like, "Oh, my gosh." And she said Deb, none of us are perfect." And then she prayed with me in a way that I just... I felt like the Holy Spirit or something jump within me.

[00:11:23] Deb Hadley: But what I knew is that she loved the Lord with all her heart, mind, soul. She had a relationship with Him, and I did not. And I knew that if I didn't have what she had, I was not gonna survive. And she really brought me such a gift. And from there, I knew I needed to dig into my faith, and that's what I did.

[00:11:44] Deb Hadley: And I started to get help. I started to go to some grief groups. I went to a Christian counselor. I started to attend Mass daily. I surrounded myself with people who could fill me up. I started reading Jesus Calling. I started to read the Bible. I was just really grounding myself and trying to understand and build this relationship.

[00:12:03] Deb Hadley: And you know what? It was working. 

New Mission

[00:12:05] Deb Hadley: And my son, Tyler, we went through this little phase where this was, like, October, so Kaylee died in June of 2013. In October, Tyler, I said, "Is there anything I can do for you, Tyler?" I said I know that you know I would never have wanted to have been you."

[00:12:22] Deb Hadley: I said, "I just, I don't know how to help you." And he says, "Mom," he goes, "You are such a downer." I was like, "Oh, I'm a downer," and he was in college. He goes, "I come home, and you're so sad I can't be around you. And I'm trying to live, and I'm trying to move forward."

[00:12:38] Deb Hadley: And that was a key moment in grief, too, is that everyone grieves differently. I was grieving. Her dad was grieving. Her siblings were grieving. Her friends were grieving. I was very imploded in my own grief, and people were having a hard time grieving her because they were grieving me. And so that's one thing, just a, a message in grief, is everyone has a right to their own grief.

[00:13:00] Deb Hadley: And I realized then, too, like I saw him. And so I was like, "Okay I can't destroy the life of everyone else around me as I'm imploding." Fast-forward about a month later Tyler... We had this hard incident. Tyler's a super good boy mommy's boy. He is like a three-sport athlete. He was just like someone who I really put up on a pedestal.

[00:13:24] Deb Hadley: And through his struggle I had found that he was smoking marijuana. I found it. And Tyler Hadley doesn't do this. Like this is, we don't do this. And I was really upset with him, and , first time ever, we got into this argument. And I spoke about this at the Fortitude conference that I was at, that Helen heard me.

[00:13:44] Deb Hadley: And we had never, ever raised our voice, and it was not good. But it was one of the greatest blessings of my life because I saw the hurt in him. And I remember him saying, "Mom," he said I don't know what to do, but when I'm with my friends," and he had wonderful friends, he's like I just feel normal for a little bit."

[00:14:07] Deb Hadley: And Christa, that's why when people are grieving, they turn to a substance. And it can be drugs. It can be alcohol. It can be cutting. It can be pornography. They're looking for something in something. And oh man, that, when Chris had put her arms around me and prayed with me and I felt the Holy Spirit, that was the first time, like I put my arms around.

[00:14:30] Deb Hadley: I said, "I don't have anything for you but to pray with you." And I prayed with him, and he just melted in my arms. And he's like, "Mom, that was so good." And I'm like, "I know." And from there, we got him help and some Christian counseling. And we grew so close in faith. And we would read Jesus Calling.

[00:14:46] Deb Hadley: We would read the Bible. We would talk. And his parent, or his roommates would say, "Hey, where's Hadley?" And they would say, "Oh, he's on the phone praying with his mom." It was just like this college kid praying with his mom. And so little, but unbeknownst to me, is that he really did co- He would tell all of his friends that they should just trust the Lord and love Him even when they didn't understand.

[00:15:07] Deb Hadley: And so fast-forward so Kaylee died in June. Nine months and two days later, I was at a conference called Set Apart up in Minneapolis, Minnesota. And after... It was a two-day conference, and I just... Set apart, what does the Lord set us apart for? That we are created for Him, for His purpose.

[00:15:24] Deb Hadley: What are we set apart for? And I was, like, do- trying to do everything I could to learn. And there was a woman there that was speaking that had lost three children in a car accident, and I really wanted to say "How does this woman survive?" And after the first day we went back to the room, and I called my husband just to see how things were going.

[00:15:44] Deb Hadley: And he had shared with me that there was this a bad snowstorm and that there was a major car accident. And the air ambulance came in, the fire trucks, it was big. He goes it's bad." And my first, right out of my mouth, was where's Tyler?" And he's like, " he was sitting right here on the couch not too long ago.

[00:16:03] Deb Hadley: He's with, John," a friend of his. And a friend named Kansas called them up, and they were just gonna drive and meet up at the local Cenex store is what they were gonna do. And I called Tyler and he didn't answer, and then I text him and he didn't answer. But then I got together with the women that I was with, and they were just so good for me in talking, asking about Kaylee, and it just...

[00:16:25] Deb Hadley: Giving me a lot of comfort. And came back to my hotel room at about 10:00 that night and asked Scott where Tyler was, called Tyler, try- called around. And and my sister-in-law who actually works with me now I was in the bathroom, and she and her daughter were trying to sleep. And she came to the bathroom door.

[00:16:42] Deb Hadley: She's like, "Deb, go to bed. He's okay." And I just like he's not. I know he's not." And I called the police station and asked if my son... I just said, "This is Deb Hadley, and I need you to tell me my son Tyler was not in that accident." And the police officer was just like we're on our way to your house."

[00:17:02] Deb Hadley: And I was like, "Okay, I'm not there, but I need to know that he's either in the air ambulance and he has a fighting chance, or if he's gone." And he just said, he goes I'm sorry, he's already gone. And as I was just ready to fall and I was like, "Oh my gosh," and he said four boys had died in that accident, and that was just such a, my heart just like, "Oh my gosh, who else is gonna go through this?"

[00:17:29] Deb Hadley: I know this pain, and now there's three other... And who are the boys, and who are they? And the three other boys. And as I got off the phone, and I just collapsed. And it was so different, Christa, because like I felt the Lord just like He was right there, and He just picked me up, and it was just like, "Focus on me and not the storm.

[00:17:46] Deb Hadley: Focus on me and not the storm." And I just knew that this whole community and all these families were falling apart, and that He needed me to be a warrior, and to go in and to do with them what Chris did to me and what I did for Tyler, and to let everybody know that we were gonna be okay.

[00:18:04] Deb Hadley: It was such a crazy mind shift. And as we were driving home three hours in, this storm my sister-in-law said, 'cause course, I was the passenger she said I praised God the whole way home and just thanked Him. Because, whatever you focus on is gonna become your reality, and I knew that, if I focused on what my reality was, that I just wasn't gonna make it.

[00:18:27] Deb Hadley: And so I was just thanking God for giving me Kaylee and Tyler for 20 and 24 years, and just for just so many things and for my family so I could see the blessings. And so that's how I got here. And we were going to run an event on Kaylee's one-year anniversary and just give donations to her school that she taught in and to epilepsy and be done.

[00:18:50] Deb Hadley: And then three months before her one-year anniversary, these boys passed, so we had an event to honor all of them down in Sleepy Eye. And it just blew up, and it was amazing. And from there we started then a foundation called KT Humble Hearts, and that was back in 2014. The K is for Kaylee and the T is for Tyler, and it's Humble Hearts.

[00:19:11] Deb Hadley: And it's just evolved over the years And I'll just take a breath here and let you give it back to you. I know. But that, that's how I got here. Yeah, it's just it's such a hard, painful story.

[00:19:22] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah ... 

[00:19:22] Deb Hadley: but God has been so faithful. 

[00:19:25] Christa Biegler, RD: I don't know if it could ever get easier to tell that story.

[00:19:29] Christa Biegler, RD: And I've heard it before, but it hurts so much to hear. And I remember the first time... I grew up in a family that never really showed emotion. And I always kind of joke that a few years ago was my year of crying. And the first time I heard this story, I was just... I think I sobbed for a half hour about it just right then.

[00:19:46] Christa Biegler, RD: And then so anyway 

[00:19:48] Christa Biegler, RD: allow me to interrupt this episode to share about a misunderstood nutrient that has given me some really cool results, and that's vitamin K2. Now, most people only know about vitamin K1 because of its blood clotting abilities, but vitamin K2 is a totally different animal. Vitamin K2 is known for bone health, but there's also a number of studies that show how useful it is in cardiovascular health and improving cardiac output in athletes, so in other words, performance.

[00:20:14] Christa Biegler, RD: With those mechanisms in mind, I started vitamin K2 before a high elevation hiking trip and had zero altitude sickness. The other thing I've used it for is sluggish thyroid. For years, I've seen calcium stuck in the tissue on hair tissue mineral analysis testing with sluggish thyroid clients, including myself.

[00:20:31] Christa Biegler, RD: Vitamin K2 is one of the most important nutrients to help calcium get where it needs to go instead of impairing thyroid function. This is a very mineral-specific nuance that can make a big difference if you don't wanna have relapsing gut issues from the sluggish motility that comes along with this subclinical sluggish thyroid issue situation that is very rampant, very common.

[00:20:52] Christa Biegler, RD: Jigsaw Health has a vitamin K2 plus E complex marketed for bone health, but that vitamin E will support the cell membrane so the nutrients can get into the cell. So it's a very nice two-for-one product, but I would also do two caps of this product, as a lot of the health benefits associated with vitamin K2 are for 100 micrograms.

[00:21:11] Christa Biegler, RD: So two caps of Jigsaw's vitamin K2 plus E is gonna get you there. You can get 10% off of any order at jigsawhealth.com with the code LESSSTRESSED10. Any time, any place, repeat orders, code LESSSTRESSED10.

Healing Tools and Grief Wisdom

[00:21:26] Christa Biegler, RD: I wrote some notes as you were sharing your story, and it's so relatable how you were talking about the emotional spiral that you went through when Kaylee passed, and the shame and the grief and really the anger. And there's this statement that I've heard several times that's the hardest thing in our faith or in our lives, which is, why do bad things happen to good people?

[00:21:55] Christa Biegler, RD: And then you were saying "Oh, I thought I was bad," right? You were literally down this spiral. And we are in this... When you start to see the war over your heart and your soul, it's hard to unsee it, right? It's oh, the liar is out there trying to get through a crack in a door, right?

[00:22:13] Christa Biegler, RD: Oh. And to open it wide open. Works 

[00:22:15] Deb Hadley: so hard. Yeah. 

[00:22:16] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. It's incredible. And and like you said, it's so normal for humans to want to run from any pain at any point. Yeah ... it is natural. We want to avoid any pain whatsoever, so when you talk about Tyler, it's so normal so com- so just resonating, right?

[00:22:35] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. And I was saying before you shared your story, I was recently in the last few months at a local funeral, and that family had just lost their second child very untimely, the first at age eight from maybe an illness, I think. And then the other one, maybe in her sleep from pneumonia, I believe.

[00:22:54] Christa Biegler, RD: And so also a college-aged daughter, and I thought, I couldn't stop thinking of you at that time. I was like, this isn't fair, and do you ever stop grieving overall? Yes. It's like- 

[00:23:04] Deb Hadley: yeah, such good questions. First of all, I think, Christa, that we're just very confused on what faith is.

[00:23:10] Deb Hadley: Faith isn't a set of rules that we follow. Sometimes, religion is good because we do need guidelines, but religion is not faith. We really need a relationship. And that relationship is built on mutual love and trust with the Lord, and your faith is really tested.

[00:23:29] Deb Hadley: If you would have asked me if the Lord was first in my life, like if he was first, you know that first commandment? Is he first? Absolutely. And if you would have to- asked me do I have unconditional faith no matter what, absolutely. I tell you what, when you're in the fire, that's when you'll know if th- that's a true statement.

[00:23:46] Deb Hadley: And for me he was not first. My kids were first. My husband, my parents, probably every living person that I see down here, and he was down, but I didn't even realize it. And so I had to work on him being first, bringing him up here to the top is what I had to do. And then faith is not that if I follow you...

[00:24:09] Deb Hadley: And I think that's when Jesus, when he started to do his miracles- ... and he was trying to be so careful because I felt he was like, he goes, "But if everywhere I go I heal everyone and I do miracles everywhere, then you will follow me just so I'll protect you." And so okay if I do all the rules, if I give money, if I'm on the board, if my kids go to religion, if I, in our faith, if it's the sacraments and we go to church, and then we part- you know, if I do all these works and I follow all these rules, then I'll be protected.

[00:24:39] Deb Hadley: And I had one woman who said to me, we were the ultimate family," the ultimate. Our family was involved in everything. My husband was on the elders. I taught. People looked at us at as a model family, and then this is how the Lord treats us? And it's because their daughter passed away.

[00:24:58] Deb Hadley: And then really that's then conditional faith, isn't it? 

[00:25:01] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. 

[00:25:02] Deb Hadley: I will follow and believe in you under the condition that you leave me alone, and that's not what that is. And so in my life, like I know that... we have to build that relationship with the Lord so strong because my daughter passed.

[00:25:18] Deb Hadley: Nine months later, my son passed, and I have parents and I have a spouse, and I have grandchild- there's gonna be more, right? Even people get diagnoses of themself, there's gonna be more hard things. And how are we gonna handle it? Not on our own strength at all. So I think first of all, you have to really build that foundation with the Lord.

[00:25:41] Deb Hadley: And grieving for the rest of my life. So i'm not mad at the Lord. I think I don't really believe I was ever mad. I just really questioned and I didn't understand. And so I think it's important for us in this journey to say, "You know what?" 'Cause people say to me, "I don't know how you could do it.

[00:25:59] Deb Hadley: I couldn't do it if I were you." I used to say that. When you're in that situation, you don't have any choice. Or if I lost my husband, or if I lost my parents, or if I lost my children, I couldn't make it. I said that. Then when it happens, you've already made a decision of you're not gonna make it.

[00:26:15] Deb Hadley: And so to change that and be like, "You know what? I'm not gonna live in fear, but I'm gonna trust the Lord. And if something happens, if I lose my husband or my parents or someone significant, or I get a diagnosis, whatever it is, I have surrendered my life to Him and I'm gonna stand firm because I know He'll take care of me because I've seen it."

[00:26:35] Deb Hadley: The fact of grieving, that is really interesting. I took a class called Build a Life After Loss in one of my certifications, and the woman driving was Julie Cluff, and woman who wrote it was Julie Cluff. And she was driving a vehicle and fell asleep and rolled it, and two of her children died.

[00:26:52] Deb Hadley: That was about 20 years old. So it was at her hand, ... So lots of guilt and shame. In her training, I remember her saying, "I no longer grieve my children." And I was like, "What in the world? How could you even say that? I'll grieve my children the rest of my life. The rest of my life."

[00:27:10] Deb Hadley: So I really questioned her on that, and she said it depends on how, what grief is," because, see, grief is in two ways. Grief can be the heavy boulder that we carry behind us the pain, the agony the debilitating grief. Or grief can become where their love grows so deep inside of us that they're right here and they move forward with us out of love, not out of pain.

[00:27:35] Deb Hadley: And she said, "So my kids are here. They move forward with me out of love. I'm not debilitated anymore because of their loss, but I am sad." And that was it. And so I had to think about that. I'm like, I'm not painfully grieving my children, but I am sad, but sad and joy can walk along the same path, and often when people are grieving or they have loss, they feel like they can't laugh again.

[00:28:02] Deb Hadley: They can't smile. They can't have a good life. How could they have a good life? Because joy and sadness walk along hand in hand. I'm sad- Yeah ... but I have so much joy. So will you grieve forever? You will have a longing and a yearning And a sadness- 

... 

[00:28:20] Deb Hadley: For that relationship and whose loss was, yes.

[00:28:23] Deb Hadley: Will you grieve heavy where it destroys your life? But you have to put work in. It's not just gonna happen. You have to put work in. 

[00:28:30] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. I think about some of these catalysts on your path, and you've talked about some of them. I think it was Chris was at the six-week mark, right? That's correct.

[00:28:39] Deb Hadley: Yeah. 

[00:28:39] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. And I think what it's very lovel- I think it's really nice to stop and underline that there's this person who felt called and didn't ignore it because she would feel awkward or stupid or whatnot. Which is really how we are as humans. We're, we, our lives are run by fear in a lot of ways, right?

[00:29:00] Christa Biegler, RD: So one, can we stop and hear? And two, can we actually act out in faith? And so she reached out and did that, and I've had that happen to me as well, where you don't, I don't know if that person realizes the impact that they make in your life. I'm sure Chris may realize that to some extent. Oh, 

[00:29:15] Deb Hadley: man.

[00:29:16] Deb Hadley: She's in my book. She saved my life. 

[00:29:18] Deb Hadley: And I love how you brought that up because there is so much more to that story. So here I am, a grieving mother who just lost her child because, I'm a bad person because of my sins, really. And you know what's so weird with that is that my thinking, thinking that, I'm like, "Well- What did her dad do to lose her?

[00:29:37] Deb Hadley: What did her brothers and sisters do to lose her? What did my grandparents do to lose her? What did her, what did her grand- what did her friends do to lose her? Look, of course that's not the case. It wasn't me. But you just implode everything. It's just so weird. So anyway, I'm feeling like I'm kicked out of the kingdom, and Chris is she was a Catholic woman, seven children, homeschooled them all.

[00:30:01] Deb Hadley: I for my... They were part of the 4H program, and they were, in the clothing project, and they were in the cooking project. And they did d- they did everything. To me, they prayed together all the time and whatever. So I had- 

[00:30:13] Christa Biegler, RD: They looked perfect. 

[00:30:14] Deb Hadley: You know what? I did. And I just thought, "Oh my gosh," and so she actually still had my phone number. I hadn't seen her for about six years. She actually called, and when people are grieving for me I just didn't answer the phone. So it went into the voicemail, and she's "Hi, Deb. Yeah, this is Chris Anderson with the 4H program. I don't know if you remember me.

[00:30:35] Deb Hadley: But I'd like to come over next Tuesday and take you out to eat if that would work." And I remember getting that. First of all, I'm like I don't want to go out with you, and I don't eat, and I don't leave my house." And at that point, I didn't even... When you are grieving, really you have to stay in the moment, 'cause I was pretty sure I wasn't gonna be alive next Tuesday.

[00:30:52] Deb Hadley: And so I ignored her. And so then she did not leave it alone. The s- the Spirit was nagging her. Called again. She's like, "Hey, Deb. This is Chris Anderson. I'm gonna come over I, on Tuesday. Could I come over next Tuesday and bring you something to eat about noon? Just let me know if that will work."

[00:31:12] Deb Hadley: And I ignored her. "Just go away." And so you'd think she would've given up. But when sh- you hear her side of the story and the Spirit was just pushing her. She didn't even know what my faith background was. But she the third call. "Deb, this is Chris. I'm coming over next Tuesday at 11:00. I'm bringing some food.

[00:31:33] Deb Hadley: If you answer the door and let me in, great. If not, I'll just put it right there on the step." And so I, she's coming, and so I just text her. I wasn't working. I, so I just text her and said, "Okay." And when y- like you said, she w- she kept saying, "What am I gonna say to a mother who's just lost two children when I haven't lost any?"

[00:31:52] Deb Hadley: "What am I gonna say to someone who I don't even know what to do with them, and now I'm going to go..." So you're exactly right. But she put it all into the power of the Holy Spirit, and she prayed outside and just said, "Lord, I don't know what I'm supposed to do with this, but I know I'm supposed to be here.

[00:32:09] Deb Hadley: So I place it in your hands to lead this, and this is all for you." So she took herself out of the picture. 

[00:32:15] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. 

[00:32:15] Deb Hadley: And she came in and, I would say she she saved my life, and I so badly what- wanted what she had, and she was just like, "Deb, it is for everyone. It is..." And she has been still walking this journey with me 13 years later, and she's the one that got me to that Encounter Conference, by the way.

[00:32:36] Deb Hadley: ... She's the one who called me and said, "You need to get to this conference. It's a Holy Spirit driven. It's in Indiana. It was last year in July." She goes, "You need to be there." And my husband, who's watched this transformation of me, said, "If Chris says you're supposed to be there, then that's where you need to go."

[00:32:53] Deb Hadley: And yeah she is definitely just a warrior in my life. I'm so grateful. But yeah, that prompting. And so with me, and when I speak publicly, I say, "When you feel prompted by the Holy Spirit, when you feel it you should call someone. You should stop in and see someone, or there's something heavy, and just do it.

[00:33:11] Deb Hadley: And don't even worry about what are you gonna say?' Just say, "No, if you feel it, do it," because I don't know where I would be today if she would not have showed up in my life. 

[00:33:21] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. And then not that long later, Tyler becomes this catalyst for you in the most interesting and unusual of ways, right?

[00:33:32] Christa Biegler, RD: Which allowed you, through that sort of, I'll call it, I'll call it a discomfort. He said, "Mom, I'm trying to do what I'm trying to do, and you're making it hard for me to do that." So it's like an uncomfortable thing that he presents in front of you that then allows you to become closer through it.

[00:33:50] Christa Biegler, RD: So often, because we wanna run from our discomfort and pain, it would be easy to push it under the rug. But you were able to go toward it and actually allow this to grow massive fruit in the following months. It's this gift- 

[00:34:06] Deb Hadley: Another thing he had said to me, he said ... 'Cause I, I was really losing weight and really struggling.

[00:34:12] Deb Hadley: And he said, "Mom, if you ever hurt yourself, ever, I will never, ever forgive you." That coming from him was it was really important because I think you can talk to most grieving people, especially when you have a sudden death or, whether it's your spo- whatever it is it that ... In the grief work that I do now, people often say I don't tell people this, but I really don't wanna live," or, "I really considered taking my life," or

[00:34:38] Deb Hadley: I think that's really common because boy, it was running through my head in a great big way. Because you just don't wanna feel the pain. 

[00:34:49] Deb Hadley: Yeah, you don't wanna feel the pain anymore. It's too much. And often I feel ... being as low as I was, like, I didn't wanna leave, but I didn't know how to stay with the pain that I was enduring.

[00:35:02] Deb Hadley: And it wasn't like, you know how people are like, "Oh, that would be so selfish." It wasn't ... When you're in those states, you can't, you don't think about other people. All you think about is the massive pain that you are in. And so he really, I'm so grateful he called me out. And when we fast-forward when I prayed for him.

[00:35:23] Deb Hadley: I was an Our Father, Hail Mary, Glory Be gal. And which was all great, but very, bless us, oh Lord, for these are our gifts, and now I lay me down to sleep. And when Chris prayed with me, it was really deep, intense. She wrapped her arms around with me. She's like, "Lord, Deb can't carry this pain anymore and she is gonna dump it.

[00:35:41] Deb Hadley: She's gonna dump all the pain, the shame, the guilt, the would'ves, the could've, everything. They're gonna dump out in buckets. Buckets poured out at your feet, Lord, 'cause she cannot carry it. You have to help carry it." And it was so intense. And then I remember her saying, "Come to me all who, who are weary and I will give you rest.

[00:35:58] Deb Hadley: Take my yoke upon you." And she just was, like, pouring and pouring. And I felt the pain dumping out of my head, just that I felt it. And I felt it moving up. And even after she left, I just kept praying, "I can't carry it. You've gotta take it." Physical pain from grief can be so intense. But sh- when she would come and pray with me, she would always add if I wanted to add.

[00:36:22] Deb Hadley: "Can I, w- would you like to add anything?" And I just couldn't. I just didn't know how. And then she would always end our prayer time with the Lord's Prayer. And and I would always say it with her and I'd always bawl. And then I would say, why do you always end with that?" And she said, "Because most people can't have a hard time spontaneously praying, but everybody knows the Lord's Prayer, so then they feel like they're a part of it, that they're praying too.

[00:36:47] Deb Hadley: Yeah. So 

[00:36:47] Christa Biegler, RD: then 

[00:36:48] Deb Hadley: the first time that I ever did it was with ... I started to practice with her and s- a friend Mary Jo and her friend Linda, and we just ... I started to try to practice praying like that. And the first time I really did was when Tyler was just so str- oh eh, he, Tyler was just like, "Mom," he was crying and he's like, "Mom, I don't wanna live.

[00:37:06] Deb Hadley: I just can't." He was in so much pain, and I got it. And then I wrapped my arms around him and I prayed with him like she prayed with me, and he just melted. 

Prayer After Tragedy

[00:37:19] Deb Hadley: And I saw the healing power of prayer, and that's when I... the night of, that the boys died, we drove home for three hours. When I got home at 2:00, 3:00 in the morning, my house was packed with people.

[00:37:30] Deb Hadley: Packed. And I knew. I walked in, hugged my husband, walked upstairs, got everyone in a circle. The, the driver lived. He was in the one in the air ambulance, and so we prayed for him. His brother was in the car, though, and his brother did die. And then there were and Tyler and two other boys. And we just sat at, we were in a circle, and we just, I just prayed for the families and I prayed for, we need to pray for the driver and that the Lord was gonna be with us, and we were gonna stand firm.

Funerals And Finding Purpose

[00:37:59] Deb Hadley: And for Kaylee's funeral, my family li- literally had to carry me up the aisle. I just, I couldn't even breathe. And for Tyler's, I carried my grandson up, and I actually spoke at it. And I, and that it was just like a... I remember saying to the priest, "I think I'm supposed to speak." And he's like, "Oh, okay," because I was such a wreck at my daughter's.

[00:38:25] Deb Hadley: Yeah. And I did. I spoke for about 15 minutes and It was a game changer really. You never know what you're saying when the Ho- Spirit is speaking. But I remember people saying w- they had just buried they had just gone to John's wake and John's funeral, and then they were coming to Tyler's wake and Tyler's funeral.

[00:38:44] Deb Hadley: And so these were their friends, and they said they came in so miserable, and they left and they felt happy and they had hope. And I just said- ... i'm going to ... I don't know. I'm gonna stand for a minute and, ... But really that every- we all have to question, because this could happen to any one of us at any time, and w- and if and when it does, is our heart ready?

[00:39:04] Deb Hadley: And yeah. And that's when I knew the Lord, that there, that this pain ... I always feel that there's purpose in suffering and pain. Because if there're not, then if there's not purpose in the pain we're going through, then I'm really gonna be ticked off because it's so painful for nothing. So I think no matter what your journey is, and grief not just from death, but whether, like I said, it's divorce or addiction or diagnosis or death or abuse.

[00:39:32] Deb Hadley: Lots of abuse. Emotional, sexual, what, pornography. Whatever it is, man, God can take your story and use you for the greatest of His kingdom and to help the next person in line. And when you can take your pain to help the next person, it's a game changer. It really is. 

[00:39:51] Christa Biegler, RD: I wanna ask you about this specifically.

[00:39:54] Christa Biegler, RD: You talked a little bit ... There's a couple things I wanna bring up. You talked a little bit about before what you focus on becomes your reality, and I agree with that wholeheartedly after doing coaching for so long with people. And you just talked about finding purpose in pain. In pain, it's so easy to focus on the pain, right?

[00:40:15] Christa Biegler, RD: And then that becomes- Yeah ... your reality. And so- Yeah ... understandably. And so there's a couple more things, as you were also talking about what you even say to someone in that situation when they're in that place. So I think the question I have for you is when someone is in pain, and you just described so many types that are common, that happen how would you encourage-- I don't know if the w- right word is encourage, but how would you empower someone maybe to find purpose in the pain?

[00:40:47] Christa Biegler, RD: And I'm gonna guess that it's not something that has to happen right away. The, the- Yeah ... grief is you sit with, you sit and feel the sad and the pain first, and then at some point you decide, what do I, how do I wanna channel this differently? But what would you say, or how would you empower someone to find purpose in that when it, life feels hopeless?

[00:41:05] Deb Hadley: Yeah. Yeah. That was a great question. And you're right. It's where they are on their journey. It really is. And and sometimes people who really struggle are those who d- they don't have a death. They really don't have anything, like- My sister-in-law, who I work with, she has... There's a lot of estrangement and addiction i- in her family.

[00:41:27] Deb Hadley: And she felt like she couldn't tell me about it 'cause I have death. My kids- ... aren't here, and then she... So a lot of times people who have things happening to them other than death feel like it's not a grief and that they can't share it 'cause it really doesn't count. And it really implodes them on the inside.

Empathy Over Platitudes

[00:41:45] Deb Hadley: So I really I, I really encourage you ha- you have to get help. You do. You really have to get help because grief is everything that happens on the inside. You don't control it. So I, I always... I think we all think about if we lost a child or a parent or of losing someone. Never did I think that I would grieve in the way that I did.

[00:42:05] Deb Hadley: But grief, it happens to you. It, you can it controls your whole entire life. It can be painful miserably w- the way your mind goes, and it, n- no one can see it. It happens on the inside, and you don't control... It will control you, and that's why we have to go through some really good mourning to get it out.

[00:42:23] Deb Hadley: And that is really talking about it, and journaling is great. And praise and worship music, and but just, y- you have to bring this dark stuff that's inside burying you and get it out in a very safe place. And so I feel that when someone is suffering from something, e- death or anything, we have to come really at a place of empathy.

[00:42:49] Deb Hadley: I'm not gonna tell you that your kid- they're in a better place, or God needed another angel, or you know what? Your, you have estrangement from your children, but at least they didn't die, and you have hope someday that you'll, none of that. That's all press- pressing down. Empathy comes at a point.

[00:43:05] Deb Hadley: Chris came to me with amazing empathy. She didn't talk at me. She didn't... Sympathy and empathy are two different things. 

[00:43:13] Deb Hadley: Sympathy is like, "Here's a hot dish, and here's a card, and here's a plant, and I'll be praying for you," which is beautiful. "I'll be praying for you." It's beautiful. Empathy comes at a place of, I've not ever been in this position before, but I'm here for you.

[00:43:30] Deb Hadley: She said to me, "I've seen people grieve before, never in the way that you're grieving. Is there anything other than Kaylee's death that is holding you back?" 

[00:43:41] Deb Hadley: And it was my divorce from her dad, and then my relationship with her, and times I felt like I failed her. And it was all this darkness that I had been hiding down for years and years that I don't wanna talk to anyone about, that I'm able to pour out, and she just held the space.

[00:44:04] Deb Hadley: So i- when I would say "I think God is punishing me," she's like, "Oh, don't think that way." She would be like, "Oh, tell me about that. Where..." And she would just let me talk about it, and then, a- and say, "Oh, I can understand why you would feel that way. You know what? I might feel that way, too.

[00:44:22] Deb Hadley: Yeah. I s- my understanding is this." So nothing that I I wasn't wrong. Everyone grieves differently. But to give people that, that empathy, that, "You know what? I don't really know what to do, but I'm here for you. I, I'm with you on this journey." It's hard. Empathy is getting in the dark hole, and there's only a few people who will ever can do that.

[00:44:46] Deb Hadley: Not many people can, and she was the one that got in the dark hole with me. So that's what I would be at the beginning, to just let them sit with it. I think that it's very hard when you are in the middle of your loss or your hard to think that anything good could come from it, anything at all.

[00:45:04] Deb Hadley: One thing that really helped me was really changing my mindset, and that's what we help people do, is to change. Which you as a coach, you know the same thing. You have to change your mindset. Because coming home, I... First of all, I realized that when Kaylee died, I always it's like let's say you have a hard problem going on.

[00:45:21] Deb Hadley: You're going through a divorce, or you have this hard, or Kaylee died. I remember, it was like my hand on my face is all I can say. It's all I could think about. People would talk to me, send me things, be there. All I could think about is she wasn't here. She wasn't here. My life is over. How am I gonna live?

[00:45:38] Deb Hadley: And it was sucking the life out of me, and I had to get that off my face. So in the order to do that, I had to start thi- seeing my blessings. Okay, remember everything else is here in my life. Every- except one person, and she gets everything of me. And so I had to start- ... thanking God for- Having her for 24 years, thanking God that I got to see her fall in love, be engaged.

[00:46:06] Deb Hadley: She said yes to the dress. I know the names of her kids. We went to concerts and plays, and we had so much fun together. I thank God for my son, who I've had for 20 years, for my husband, for my parents who are still living at 88 and 89 years old, for my friends and my family and my church and my God, and God dying on the...

[00:46:27] Deb Hadley: Jesus dying on the cross for me, and y- change your focus from that and see the blessings that are before you. I am so grateful that I was able to see the blessings and that Tyler really called me out, and that I had to start focusing on my blessings. Otherwise I would have missed him I would have missed him completely.

[00:46:48] Deb Hadley: Yeah. So it is the griever getting help and moving that, changing our focus. And then the purposing, purpose in suffering, just trusting the Lord, and be patient with it. Yeah. It's not ... Oh, I've got just so many things I could say, so I k- I got all over the place, but- 

[00:47:06] Christa Biegler, RD: It feels ... I can always summarize.

[00:47:08] Christa Biegler, RD: What I wanna s- mention about mindset is that I think it's good to always clarify, because we can have stereotypes about how we feel or how we perceive something. And so it's tricky sometimes if you haven't gone through different exercises, that you might think of this as being toxic positivity or it's like you say things that don't really feel true.

[00:47:29] Christa Biegler, RD: And there was probably shifts and changes. I s- I can almost be certain that there were shifts and changes in you before you could believe- Yep ... and state that you were thankful for the time that you did have with him. You were thankful that Tyler called you out so you could spend that time with him.

[00:47:47] Christa Biegler, RD: You were thankful that Kayley told you that in the car, and that you got to shop for the wedding dress and those things. But there was probably a time where it would have felt impossible for you to come up with those praises and those thanks. Yeah. And it would have, you would have been, like, grasping at straws maybe, or it would have felt like toxic positivity.

[00:48:04] Christa Biegler, RD: I can always tell in a conversation with somebody if they're trying to find a new thought around something to focus on, and it's baloney. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, "Oh, does that feel true to you?" And so there was some, there was a messy middle in between, which you've talked a little bit about, right?

[00:48:18] Christa Biegler, RD: But there's a messy middle in between before you get to that, before you're able to switch into that, right? It takes, to be honest, it's, I guess it takes some practice, and it may take some help sometimes to find it. Because it's not the natural, easy way that our brain wants to operate.

[00:48:34] Christa Biegler, RD: Our brain wants to recruit all the things that it, that support our negative, our negativity and our fear, understandably. It's just how it works for survival, right? Yeah. So it's always looking for that.

[00:48:45] Deb Hadley: So well said, because, at first when I was thanking God, I didn't wanna thank him at all.

[00:48:49] Deb Hadley: And believe me too this is one of those things where, I was trying to focus on my blessings, and then in the next sentence I'm just mad and spiraling down. Yeah, understandable. So it is ... And I think you're right. We don't want to fake, we wanna be honest with our feelings. I always tell people if you're mad at God, if you are, if you... Then say it. Yeah. Just say it, and don't... then that's good. Anger- ... is good. If you're- ... as long as someone is talking. And a lot of times under that anger is just disappointment and resentment and hurt and wounds and all kinds of stuff.

[00:49:22] Deb Hadley: But those emotions, so y- absolutely. And that all comes out when you're working in grief work too, to be very honest with your feelings. And that's mourning, to get out- ... the hurt so that you can bring in, you can bring in, For me, inside of me was conflicting with outside of me.

[00:49:41] Deb Hadley: Inside of me was hurt, shame, guilt, bitterness, sadness a wanting to not live at all, and then here's the outside. And I'm trying to survive. And so what I w- it's important to do is that we have to... I wanted the inside of me to be filled with the fruits of love and joy and peace and kindness and self-control so they're not conflicting with each other.

[00:50:05] Deb Hadley: But often I think that's why there's no peace, because the inside is just full of yeah, guilt, shame, grief, darkness, while the outside- Yeah ... is trying to appear like you're okay and got it together. And that's where that work comes in. 

[00:50:20] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. I just wanna emphasize and bold what you said about if you're angry about, with God, et cetera.

[00:50:26] Christa Biegler, RD: If you cannot verbalize that, it just further deepens the root of guilt or shame, because the reason you feel like you can't say, "I'm angry," or resent this person or whatnot is re- is usually the root of that is typically because I'm ashamed to say that because it doesn't feel good. It doesn't feel right.

[00:50:42] Christa Biegler, RD: It doesn't feel perfect to say those things. And that's actually becomes more painful, ultimately, is what you're... a different way of saying what you're saying. I find shame to be one of the more... the, the things that you've dealt with sometimes something'll really stick with you, and I find shame to be a really it's a really painful one, for sure.

[00:50:58] Christa Biegler, RD: They're all very painful feelings. But something that may or may not be encouraging, th- that's been encouraging to me working with humans is, like- We all have different circumstances and situations, but as humans, we share common feelings. We go through pains in different ways and different places, and I think it's really interesting the story you shared about talking about estrangement and people having shame to even say it.

[00:51:23] Christa Biegler, RD: I can- that's f- is so relatable, and thanks for bringing it up because, something that I hadn't been able to really get out of my head for a long time that I saw once was, like, grieving the person that's still alive, right? All of those things that we deal with. And then also realizing that life is not all positive either.

[00:51:41] Christa Biegler, RD: It's like there's a 50/50 in life and so a lot of it is very challenging. And then so what, something else I wanna o- mention or offer or underline here that I really appreciated is I've never heard anyone pull out, extrapolate mourning out or describe it or define it in that way. And that's so helpful to realize that, immediately post anything or, at any point you may be mourning.

[00:52:10] Christa Biegler, RD: And you gave some tools for m- mourning, talking about it, journaling about it, praise and worship. And I've never heard anyone talk about this. I've heard people say, talk about talking about someone is actually healing, right? Because we don't wanna forget their memory. And sometimes I have that thought in the back of my head I love the way that you share your children's memory.

[00:52:33] Christa Biegler, RD: I'm like, what a beautiful gift because very often, in this generation and the previous one, we didn't talk about anything, right? We didn't talk about anything. I I have this image in- We don't know how ... Yeah, we don't know how. I have this image in my head being seven years old and my mom had lost her last baby after he was born, a couple hours after he was born.

[00:52:57] Christa Biegler, RD: And then and then she had friends that were having babies at the same time, and I remember watching her in her... She took the, her friend's baby into her bedroom, and she was just weeping. And I don't know if she would remember that, but it's just etched in my mind. But, do you ever talk about it, right?

[00:53:12] Christa Biegler, RD: Do you ever talk about it? And I just think that's, I think mourning, I wonder if people ebb and flow in and out of mourning throughout their life. I've never heard it described like that, and it's such a beautiful way to talk about it. 'Cause we've talked about grief being so many things, and you talking about do you ever stop grieving?

[00:53:29] Christa Biegler, RD: May- maybe, but you're not, you're still sad, right? And sadness and joy can walk together. But this mourning is almost like a permission to say there are ways to mourn, and they include talking about this person that you love, whether they are alive or gone or whatever it is. Because so often we're like, "Oh, we don't wanna talk."

[00:53:49] Christa Biegler, RD: I definitely grew up in a family that was like, "Oh, I don't wanna bother that person. I don't wanna talk about it." And man, that has been a hard thing to unshackle from, unfortunately. It's 

[00:53:59] Deb Hadley: tricky. 

Mourning Tools And Grief Growth

[00:53:59] Deb Hadley: It's just our society is, you know- Yeah ... you, bereavement is three days, of bereavement support.

[00:54:04] Deb Hadley: But yeah, you said so much in, in that. Estrangement i- it's we do estrangement grief support groups, and so I'd love to talk, make sure that we talk about our foundation because we offer some really good things for people. But estrangement it's one of the greatest griefs right now. It is just rampant where... And it's interesting when you have, you hear the side of the parent who is, estranged from the child, and then you hear the side of the child that has estranged the parent, of, and they're not Even on the sa-- they don't-- that's where the conflict's coming in.

[00:54:41] Deb Hadley: The groups that we have are all-- they're-- we have two mothers who had estranged children and so trained in it. But yes, very painful but a safe place for those moms to come together to be able to talk about it and support each other, and then they remain friends in a way. And so that has been a huge group, grief.

[00:55:02] Deb Hadley: Divorce too. We have a gal that is doing divorce care for us, and you said it too. It's like especially if the divorce wasn't mutual, if one person left, one-- and you're hurting and you wanted that life and now that whole life and there's childr- there's a lot of ickiness. Yeah, that is a very heavy grief that people have that's even not a, that's not a death.

[00:55:24] Deb Hadley: Mourning. I'm gonna give you the greatest example that I've seen is that there's three jars and they're all the same size. So like just think of three canning jars that are all the same size. And in the first one, it's right when grief happens and grief is like a big bowling ball inside of that jar.

[00:55:44] Deb Hadley: It's like a, it's a softball filling up almost that whole space. And when grief spills up y- the, your body, there's no room for blessings and there's no room for other grief to come in because believe me, we don't grieve one and done, do we? There's multiple that come in. And so people believe that over time that grief is gonna get smaller, so it's gonna be like a softball.

[00:56:05] Deb Hadley: Now it's gonna come down to a tennis ball, and now it's gonna be down to a golf ball, and now I'll be able to breathe. And people want that person back, "Oh, I just, I miss the old you." So we stay the same. The jar stays the same. The grief gets smaller. That is not true. The grief stays the size of the softball.

[00:56:25] Deb Hadley: It fills up the jar. And mourning is the person and that gets bigger. So instead of going from just a little canning jar, then it goes big to a, a bigger sized jar. The grief stays the same and now the space you as the griever, you have to change The grief is going to be there. You're n- I'm never gonna miss my kids less.

[00:56:48] Deb Hadley: I'm never gonna, I have to grow and transform around it. So the grief stays the same. I keep growing, and I keep growing. And as I grow, now there's room for blessings, there's room for healing. When, as, as I was growing, Tyler came in and died in the middle of all that. I've had other hard things that have happened.

[00:57:07] Deb Hadley: You know what? I can I can withhold them. I have space. I have training. I have tools. I have my faith. I have that. So we have to grow. I'm never gonna miss my kids less. It's never gonna be less painful. I'm not, but I have grown around it. And they- ... they liken it to grief being a car with a flat tire on the side of the road.

[00:57:32] Deb Hadley: It is never gonna get better or move unless you Fix the tire. Fixing the tire is mourning, and then it can move. A, a rock laying there is grief. It just sits there. You gotta pick it up and throw it if you want it to move it. You have to move it. Y- you h- have to move the grief. Biblical times when someone was grieving, they'd rip their clothes, they'd smudge mud all over them and I'm grieving," and for a whole year everybody would see and come around and help them.

[00:57:59] Deb Hadley: Here- Yeah ... three days, I can walk into a store, no one has any clue in the world what has happened to me. We don't get that. We don't, like you said, you don't even know what to do. And what we- what do we do to help the grieving? Usually if I'm in a grocery store someone would turn down a different aisle so they don't have to talk to me.

[00:58:15] Deb Hadley: That's what we do. We don't know what to do. And so we have to learn how to mourn, and as a society we need to learn how to come alongside each other and talk about it. And in our grief work that we do, we go back into the, the steps of mourning. We have to go back in. What happened? How did they die?

[00:58:35] Deb Hadley: Whether it's a diagnosis, whether it was a sudden, take me back to the night. We have to work back through that trauma. But then an- another step is to bring them to life. Who is this person? They're so much more than what they, than their death. Who is this per- they get to bring them to life and talk about their person.

[00:58:53] Deb Hadley: And when they talk about their person they just light up. Yeah, and lots of steps. I highly encourage grief support. My dad told me when I was a little girl, he said "Deborah, if you ever feel like there's something not right in your head, if you ever feel like, like you don't wanna be here or something's wrong a weak person lets it destroy their life, and a strong person goes and gets help."

[00:59:15] Deb Hadley: He says you be the strong person." And I have taken that to heart because so often we feel "I can do this myself." And I couldn't do it myself. And get help. Get the support that you need. I recommend Christian counseling. Only in, in my journey I wouldn't be here today without my faith, and I can talk to people t- till they're m- about grief, but it's really having a foundation that's not going to change on you while everything else around you changes.

[00:59:43] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. I think that people who work in a secular profession would still say, we, and we see lots of evidence of this, that people do want a higher power or they f- They do ... they really, there can be a hole there sometimes. And there may be some healing. Of course, there's healing that sometimes has to happen there because of past hurts, et cetera.

[01:00:05] Christa Biegler, RD: And on that note- A, a lot of this comes back to a safe place to find help and to find hope- Yeah ... et cetera. And for you, Chris was a safe place, and for you Tyler, speaking out he was a safe place. And sometimes I feel like people aren't sure where to turn to find a hard, a safe place, and that's hard to watch.

[01:00:28] Christa Biegler, RD: In any, with any topic, I always think, so we are often limited by what we have seen, what we have perceived by the box that we live in. And so sometimes we need to have witness to possibilities which is the point of this show, is, Yeah ... that it helps people understand that there is options.

[01:00:45] Christa Biegler, RD: And, oh, one other thing I wanted to mention is that this show wasn't for those that have h- gone through painful things, which is all of us at some point. It's for all of us trying to figure out how to navigate, how to help and be a light and also be a safe place for others that are going through hard things.

[01:01:01] Christa Biegler, RD: Because- Yeah ... if it's not us yet, it will be us later, right? Or at any point. And we all have different- 100% ... we all have different things. So what would you say to someone who needs to find safe help, hope? I know you have a foundation. Yeah. And I think, about so many... And thanks for sharing about the estrangement group support groups.

[01:01:22] Christa Biegler, RD: Because, before you said that, I, I, n- never really even thought about it, but it's so cool to have those very specific things that are- Yeah ... really so common, but people feel alone. They always feel... And that's that's with anything someone deals with. So often we do feel like we're the only ones going through that and that we're completely alone, and we don't realize that there's other people that are walking a similar path or a parallel path.

[01:01:46] Deb Hadley: And the shame that comes with that. 

[01:01:47] Deb Hadley: So my child's estranged from me. I must be a bad mom. That there must be something wrong with their family. And I gotta tell you, these are good families. 

[01:01:53] Deb Hadley: These are good families that you would see them, you would have no idea. And good people.

[01:01:59] Deb Hadley: And then so then they carry this shame and guilt, and they don't want anyone to know, 'cause we all wanna look perfect on the outside. So it's really a great place to come with other people who'll be like, "Ugh- I always-- people come to us because we bring them hope. I always say, "You know what? If I were an alcoholic, I would want to go to someone who had been an alcoholic and that they have found a way to beat it, or they found hope in it."

[01:02:25] Deb Hadley: If I were going through, death, I want someone who has gone through death. I want someone who has gone through it to give me hope, and I think that's what is-- I think that is super important. 

KT Humble Hearts Resources

[01:02:37] Deb Hadley: What I thought-- what-- So our foundation's KT Humble Hearts. We are a grief support service.

[01:02:42] Deb Hadley: We are Christian-based. And I also liked how you said people are looking for a higher power. We take people wherever they're at. We, we just do. We take people wherever they're at to help them work in their grief support. And we have a place in Alexandria, Minnesota but we also do... we're nationwide because of Zoom has been just amazing, and so we can help people no matter where we are.

[01:03:03] Deb Hadley: And what happens is we ask people to go to our website, which is kthumblehearts.org, and it says there's a grief inquiry on there, and you push the button and you tell us what your grief is, whether it's a death of someone or whether it's not related to death. Just let us know what it is. You fill it in, and then our calendar pops up for a half an hour, either a phone call or a Zoom.

[01:03:25] Deb Hadley: So from there, we can talk with people to find out what's our best bet. What training program do we have or support program do we have? Do we... Like right now, we're starting a group for those who've lost a spouse, so we can fill that. But as they come into, if there's a lot of estrangement people coming in, loss of child, divorce care, whatever, that we'll, we shape our groups around what that need is.

[01:03:48] Deb Hadley: But the one-on-one, we'll walk alongside you no matter what that looks like if we feel like we can help, and we don't charge anything for it, and that's been the biggest blessing. We get people to donate or people who've come through our programs who have paid it forward and paid it, bountifully to help the next person in line.

[01:04:08] Deb Hadley: We do events. I publicly speak. And so all those things. We sell clothing and books, and all those things fund us because we don't want a barrier A lot of times if people are going through a divorce, they've lost half their income, right? Or they're in a tough situation. If people have lost a child, sometimes there's not life insurance.

[01:04:27] Deb Hadley: A spouse, they lost h- half their income, or maybe they were on Social Security. Now they lost half of it. Lots of hard things that are out there, and so we don't want that to be a barrier, and so we've removed it. And so people can come, https://kthumblehearts.org/, and we'll be here to walk alongside. And then like I said, the groups I find I haven't lost a spouse, but everyone in the spouse group has lost a spouse.

[01:04:51] Deb Hadley: And I always say, we don't compare our grief in anything. Christa imagine there's this big bowl, okay? And then y- you, you throw your heart in this big bowl, and everybody else throws their heart in, and then now we have to draw one out Boy, I might draw out the one where I lose my spouse. I might draw out the one where I have cancer.

[01:05:14] Deb Hadley: I might draw out the one where my kids are estranged from me, or my daughter's an alcoholic, or maybe I'm an alcoholic. And I'll ... Do I want that grief, or do I wanna keep my own and then just work the best I can and empower myself and, and be in a and move forward in that?

[01:05:33] Deb Hadley: And that was helpful for me. I don't like my grief, but I don't wanna draw ... I don't want yours either. And you don't want mine, but we're gonna learn from each other, because things you've gone through, I may. Things I've gone through, you may. So how do we work together to empower each other to help the next person in line, and to continually lift ourselves and heal ourselves?

[01:05:55] Deb Hadley: Kthumblehearts.org. Another thing I would suggest on Facebook since 2018, I've been doing a morning God boost. It's called The Morning God Boost. It's at KT Humble Hearts Deb Hadley. And it's about 10 minutes. It's a podcast. And I'm usually in my pajamas with no makeup on, 'cause the Lord told me to stay humble.

[01:06:13] Deb Hadley: And and I do that, and I'll ... It's helped a lot of people through their grief or build their relationship with the Lord or work through their heart. And so that's been a resource that's free out there. And I always tell people, "If it's helpful, watch it. If it annoys you, just shut it off-" "... and scroll on by," right?

[01:06:31] Christa Biegler, RD: Oh, Deb, so many resources. I didn't even know that's how your foundation was run, so- Yeah ... that's what I love. It's pretty 

[01:06:38] Deb Hadley: awesome. 

[01:06:38] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah, it's pretty awesome. It is. Is right. Understatement. 

[01:06:42] Deb Hadley: You know what, I, in 2024 I actually moved from working at Extension into hospice. And when I was in the hospice care things just weren't going well.

[01:06:52] Deb Hadley: We had some changes and it wasn't good. And someone had called me, and I think I told you that, and just said, "How is everything going, specifically at work?" And I said, "It's not good." And then they said "Yeah, that's 'cause the grace has moved." It was so simple. I'm like, what? I was like... She goes, "It's just moved.

[01:07:10] Deb Hadley: It was there." Oh, and it was. She goes, "But it's moved." She says, "Maybe you want to work for your foundation." And I'm like, "Oh, maybe not." I mean- ... how do I l- drop my full-time salary and my insurance and go work for a foundation that really doesn't have any money in it? I'm like, "Probably not."

[01:07:25] Deb Hadley: And she's like foundations can't operate if they don't have a CEO." And I, in my prayer time, I heard the Lord say, "Not only are you gonna work for that foundation, you need to bring a team around you because you will collapse underneath the weight of the grief that's out there, and you need a place."

[01:07:42] Deb Hadley: And boy, I listened, and I'm a full-time employee and work here. My sister-in-law w- works here with me. We've hired another employee, and and we're based off donations. It's just crazy. We're just, We're a 501[c][3], so that m- the Morning Gos- God Boost that I've done for eight years and didn't know why I was doing it since two...

[01:08:01] Deb Hadley: Or six... Yeah, since 2018. When we opened our doors, I just said, "Hey, if you'd ever wanna be a faith partner with us and just donate monthly because this ministry has done something to..." I remember when someone said that they liked my ministry. I thought, "Ministry? I don't have a ministry." They're like, "Oh, yes you do."

[01:08:19] Deb Hadley: But it's like, if ever, we have helped you or any way and you'd like to become a faith partner. So we have monthly faith partners. They donate every month so that we know that we have that consistent income coming in. I do a Morning God Boost, I've, which I've told you, and people sponsor it.

[01:08:34] Deb Hadley: So if they have a loved one that passed away or they have a new baby that was born, they sponsor it, and I show pictures. And it's just been fun ways for people to donate to us, and it's all tax-deductible, and it's just been, It's been amazing, and it just con- c- God continues just to pour into it.

[01:08:50] Deb Hadley: I'm just- 

[01:08:51] Christa Biegler, RD: I think that's such a good other story, by the way, of the fear that comes when you're stepping out in faith. And praise God for that person who had that very strong, prophetic dream for you. Okay, and then for you to listen it's a 

[01:09:06] Deb Hadley: double whammy. I know. You know what's crazy with her?

[01:09:07] Deb Hadley: She's given me, like three or four pr- that could be many shows here, prophetic things. And she told me, she goes, "I get prophetic words, Deb." She goes, "You're the only one who has really listened." So I just ... And I have in many things that she has said. She's the one, I was writing on Facebook, and that RIP Angel Tyler Kailey, and I was just writing.

[01:09:29] Deb Hadley: And and I would read Jesus Calling, and would say what it speaks to me, and then I would write a little bit about scripture and bring people on my journey. And then, just lift people up on my journey. And she said to me, "You know what? I feel like you're idolizing your kids because it's called RIP Angel Tyler Kailey."

[01:09:45] Deb Hadley: And she was right. And she goes, "I think you should have a page that's solely to your foundation, that puts God first, like He would be the focus." "And I think you should videotape yourself." And that, I was like, "I'm not doing that because I'm up at 5:00 a.m. in my pajamas." And boy, if that wasn't another thing that I heard the Lord on February 14th, 2018.

[01:10:04] Deb Hadley: "You be humble. You be humble." I'm like, "What is that?" And I'm like, "Oh my gosh, you want me to videotape myself." And I started. And then I think, but look at how God has ... I just think of the timing too of it, is that it's like this, y- you only see what you're in, but God, how He weaves in and out, and the people He- brings into our lives, and the doors that open, and the things that happen. And I just, it- Incredible orchestra 

[01:10:28] Christa Biegler, RD: director ... 

[01:10:29] Deb Hadley: oh, it just goes on, and on. And had she not made ... She made the Facebook page. Had I not listened to her and then felt really prompted that I should do that, God boost. When we opened our doors in 2024 and we didn't have any money, and I live in Alexandria.

[01:10:45] Deb Hadley: We're not even from here. We moved here. I, the, so keep in mind, I moved to a new area, and then I have, I go on to this, 8,000 people that have been following me for these years, or now I think that's what they're up to, and I said, "Hey, this is what the Lord's asked me to do. And if you feel compelled in your heart..."

[01:11:03] Deb Hadley: And they just yes." It was like, oh my gosh. And it's been absolutely amazing. For my birthday when I turned 60 years old- I, birthdays are hard not because, I love that I turned 60, but my kids don't get them. And so for my birthday I'm always like, "Okay, I'm gonna be 60.

[01:11:22] Deb Hadley: So if I can, if I could get 60 people to donate $22 a month for a year," 22 is my son's number, and there's a whole thing with that. But if 60 people would donate $22 a month for one year, that would be like $15,000 and that would pay for our rent. We had 70 people do it. And they sign up and then we do all these challenges, and it's just this community that comes together and supports each other.

[01:11:46] Deb Hadley: And like these walks that we'll do. These remembrance walks are coming up where we remember people's loved ones on the path, and they, we do a dove release. But people from all over the country who've been in our grief groups will fly in for it, and they'll meet each other for the first time. People who watch me on the God Booth, they come to where I speak, or they come and usually the first thing they say to me is, "Oh, you're taller than I thought," 'cause I'm always sitting. And I'm 

[01:12:11] Christa Biegler, RD: like, "I am taller," yeah. 

[01:12:13] Deb Hadley: Yeah. And but they just feel we're just a community, and we're friends, and we support each other, and we continue to support each other and lift each other up.

[01:12:19] Deb Hadley: And it's really it's really amazing. I would say the number one thing that people say in the evaluations after going through our group is that we just help them find their faith again. ... And that's, what more could we ask for? What 

[01:12:33] Christa Biegler, RD: more could you ask for on 

[01:12:34] Deb Hadley: this- Yeah. And, 

[01:12:35] Christa Biegler, RD: human earth? 

[01:12:36] Deb Hadley: It's my Acts 20:24- That's finite ... where the Lord says, "I will spend the rest of my life praising the good news of God's grace wherever I go," and sprinkle those seeds. And yeah- I love- ... the harvesters are few, but the harvest, yeah, let's get out there. There's- 

[01:12:50] Christa Biegler, RD: Is plenty.

[01:12:51] Christa Biegler, RD: There's 

[01:12:52] Deb Hadley: plenty. Let's get out there. 

[01:12:53] Christa Biegler, RD: Thank you so much for being such a radiant light. It's been a real treasure to witness your story and to hear your story, and to get to ask you questions, and for you to use your story to help us become a little bit better along the way. So thank you so much for coming on today.

[01:13:12] Deb Hadley: I'm so honored. Thank you, Christa.

Thanks for listening to this week's show. For all the links mentioned in this episode, from submitting your questions and comments to picking up The Cortisol Reset or Finally Focused: Mental Clarity on Demand, you can find all of those links in the show notes below this episode. See you next week