On this episode of the Less Stressed Life, I'm joined by my associate registered dietitian, Jenna De Kok, to continue our conversation about CIRS and mold, this time focusing on the health of your home.

After navigating multiple mold exposures herself, Jenna has learned firsthand how overwhelming the environmental side of healing can feel. We talk about what she wishes she had known earlier, including proper mold removal, small particle cleaning, HVAC maintenance, humidity, and when an Indoor Environmental Professional (IEP) may be helpful. We also discuss practical ways to support a healthier home without feeling like you have to figure everything out overnight.

KEY TAKEAWAYS:
🏠 What to do when you find mold or water damage
🧹 Why small particle cleaning matters after mold exposure
🧼 Why killing mold isn't the same as removing it
💨 HVAC maintenance, airflow & indoor air quality
💧 Why monitoring humidity can help prevent mold growth
🔎 When an Indoor Environmental Professional (IEP) may help
🌱 Taking practical steps without letting mold overwhelm you

ABOUT GUEST:
Jenna is a registered dietitian via her business Nutritiously Jenna and associate practitioner at Less Stressed Life Nutrition. She started working with Christa in 2018 doing mentorship hours for her undergraduate degree. Her passion for women's wellness came from her firsthand struggles flaring with a variety of gut, detox/drainage, nervous system, and energy issues. In January 2026 was when she officially learned that CIRS was a piece of not only her health story but also, her husband's after a variety of exposures to biotoxins in their homes. Through this experience, her goal is helping other "misunderstood" clients better understand how their symptoms can be influenced by the health of their environment.

WHERE TO FIND GUEST:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nutritiouslyjenna/

SPONSOR:
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NUTRITION PHILOSOPHY OF LESS STRESSED LIFE:
🍽️ Over restriction is dead
🥑 Whole food is soul food and fed is best
🔄 Sustainable, synergistic nutrition is in (the opposite of whack-a-mole supplementation & supplement graveyards)
🤝 You don’t have to figure it out alone
❤️ Do your best and leave the rest

WHERE TO FIND CHRISTA:
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TRANSCRIPT:

[00:00:00] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: So if you're just killing, so to speak, the mold without removing it, it's- in the air likely to cause symptoms. And for some people, those smaller symptoms are actually more irritating to the immune system than the actual mold, the mycotoxins it was producing itself.

[00:00:16] Christa Biegler, RD: I'm your host, Christa Biegler, and I'm going to guess we have at least one thing in common, that we're both in pursuit of a less stressed life. On this show, I'll be interviewing experts and sharing clinical pearls from my years of practice to support high-performing, health-savvy women in pursuit of abundance and a less stressed life.

[00:00:46] Christa Biegler, RD: One of my beliefs is that we always have options for getting the results we want, so let's see what's out there together

[00:01:04] Christa Biegler, RD: Okay. Today on The Less Stress Life I have back Jenna De Kok, who is a registered dietician in my business and her own. She started working with me back in 2018 doing mentorship hours, and she has a passion for women's wellness that came from her firsthand struggles flaring with a variety of gut and detox and drainage and nervous system and energy issues.

[00:01:29] Christa Biegler, RD: But this year, in January 2026, she was officially diagnosed or f- officially learned that CIRS, which is C-I-R-S, was a piece of her health history, but also her husband's health symptoms and experiences after a variety of exposures to biotoxins in their homes. So this is our second episode that we're doing to talk about the environmental aspect, because the first episode we talked about...

[00:01:53] Christa Biegler, RD: a lot about CIRS, what it is, the differences between having that biotoxin illness and the overlap with mycotoxins or mold toxins. And this has been such as with everything that we experience, such a learning experience for her, whether she wanted it or not. And so through this experience, her goal is helping other, quote-unquote, "misunderstood clients" better understand how their symptoms can be influenced by the health of their environment.

[00:02:18] Christa Biegler, RD: So we thought that this merited another conversation of some of the things that she has learned, gained, experienced, and would change about her environmental experiences so far. So welcome back, Jenna.

[00:02:29] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Awesome. Yeah, very excited, very timely, 'cause we just got our, kinda, inspection report on the current home, so I feel very up-to-date on all of the environmental things or aware.

[00:02:40] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. Good. Yeah. Okay. So let me do a little bit of a summary. So like I said, in the previous episode we mostly covered CIRS, the overlap between biotoxin illness, which is, not only mycotoxins, but other toxins, including bacteria or even gas leaks in the home, and how those can cause some massive nervous system things that can look like profound anxiety and some other very hallmark symptoms, but it could be honestly anything.

[00:03:07] Christa Biegler, RD: But one of the things we have both learned a lot about and grown a lot in is just so much related to the environment. And the health of the home is one of those many things that we didn't really realize we would have to even- Yeah ... handle at all in practice. But because it's hard to find good resources, and the internet is not a great place for this online, it's this scary place we thought it would be nice to do a refresh.

[00:03:32] Christa Biegler, RD: So I was just, reminiscing or recollecting with Jenna before we hit record about any other episodes we've done that did a pretty good job. And there was an episode with Michael. We have a mold playlist. Yeah ... so we have some specific Spotify playlists. If you go to the podcast page, it's kristabigler.com/ podcast.

[00:03:49] Christa Biegler, RD: And then if you scroll down a little bit, we have playlists for specific topics. And in the mold playlist- and there's some other, topics there as well. I think Michael Rubino talked pretty well about... 'Cause I was dealing with a leak. I'd had a leak. I was gone for two weeks, and no one walked downstairs, and- we had a new water filtration system that was leaking, and it leaked into the bathroom next to the utility room. And so we were actually talking about that removal and what I did right and wrong and what he would change, et cetera. And so we're gonna talk a little bit about that kind of thing today.

[00:04:20] Christa Biegler, RD: So we'll, let's jump in with story. 'Cause that's always helpful. I know right now you're in a home where you're dealing with some things- ... and you're going through it in a stepwise fashion, but it wasn't really always like that. No. And there was a time where you were in a home where you had a known, some kind of pipe leak or something.

[00:04:38] Christa Biegler, RD: And so if you want to if that- Yeah ... seems like a good place to start. What happened the first time... That was, I think, the first time you were in a home where you were very fully aware that you had a problem 'cause there was an active situation going on. I know last time we talked about how there was issues with the skylight.

[00:04:53] Christa Biegler, RD: Those are one of those slow things that it's like, oh, do, is there a problem? Is there not a problem? But then there was I think a pipe leak in the basement and I remember- ... seeing some footage of you actually pulling down the sheetrock in that space. So let's talk about, like, when that was, what happened, what you did, and maybe what you'd do...

[00:05:10] Christa Biegler, RD: we can get to that, but maybe what you'd do differently now that so let's talk, maybe start there.

[00:05:14] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Yeah. Totally. So this was about two years ago. And basically, yeah, first we acknowledged out in this home there were some signs or discoloration of the skylights leaking before we had lived there, but granted- didn't think much about it. Just was aware oh, there is no active mold growth at this point in time. But lo and behold, we got to a point in time where it was just raining way more than the norm out west. So the skylight, or one of them in the home actually terribly leaked into this little closet behind the skylight, or how can I say?

[00:05:47] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Further sloped down in the home. So that whole room, that ceiling was covered in mold. So it's again-

[00:05:53] Christa Biegler, RD: Wow ...

[00:05:54] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: most of the time most people aren't aware of these active leaks. I feel like that's not the normal story here, but of course this huge huge awareness of, okay, we have an issue, so to speak, going on.

[00:06:07] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: So at that point in time, not really well-versed on the environmental aspect or side of things when it comes to mold. We have the homeowner actually come in rip down the mold, bring it out, and while maybe just a little bit starting to become aware of mycotoxins, how they flow- ... in the home or if they're airborne, kind of the air movement and all of that.

[00:06:29] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: So my parents actually came out too, and we kinda set up this, Air fan or drawing the air out from that closet outside. So that's where we left it at. And granted, at that point in time, I personally didn't start experiencing any symptoms, but now looking back, that's when my husband started experiencing symptoms.

[00:06:47] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: But nothing, like, in our face where we're, like, connecting the dots on things. So anyways, it was probably about a year then from there back in 2024, when we had this pipe leak in the bathroom and totally, got on the wall the subfloor, all of that. So we personally ourselves just ended up removing it getting it out of the space.

[00:07:09] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Of course, looking back, too, just walking through the home with these contaminated- ... pieces of wood, so to speak. And yeah, that's really all we did. not aware of the fact oh, s- small particle cleaning, which we'll dive into, or even the fact the small particles or the mycotoxins mold produces become airborne.

[00:07:27] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: And if you're not actually cleaning, so to speak, the air in the home, they can still be there regardless of the fact that you've truly removed the mold, which is essential. But these other factors that can still irritate individuals with CIRS. So- ... that at least is what we did. But now, yeah, in terms of looking back on what we would do now, totally would contain the area.

[00:07:50] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: There's so much more detail, we would dive into to properly, yeah, retain the area, remove the mold, clean the air, small particle clean the home. And most of the time, you do actually end up having to clean the entire home because, again, these mycotoxins get airborne, so to speak. So they're probably traveling around the home, Without obviously you visibly seeing them and seeing where they're at.

[00:08:12] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: So lot more, yeah, we can dive into. So don't know if anything's sparking any initial questions.

[00:08:17] Christa Biegler, RD: I wrote like a list, and we see- Okay ... bits and pieces of this online if someone ends up in this rabbit hole, and it's probably just us and our algorithms that I think we probably see- Yeah

[00:08:27] Christa Biegler, RD: a little bit more of this as well. And so it's like step one, maybe contain the space, try to tape it off- ... with plastic essentially is some of the containment. Yeah. When people are doing fancy remediations, they may have a fancy air scrubber at that time. But anyway, so contain the space, remove the mold, which is if you have had sheetrock, which is basically compressed dust- it's been wet for more than 24 hours, then mold can grow, and if you can see a mold... The problem is that we have stereotypes about what we believe and understand about mold, and not all mold is black. Some of it is white, so you cannot see it very easily. But even when you cannot see anything so a mold that is growing can give off hundreds if not thousands of toxins that you may not see.

[00:09:10] Christa Biegler, RD: And so when you're removing that, you're trying to contain that as much as possible 'cause it's getting in the air. And then I think, I don't know which one was next if you said small particle cleaning and then cleaning the air. So when someone has a fancy remediation company coming in, and I think part of understanding this is understanding, I'm not necessarily saying what you can do on your own and whatnot.

[00:09:28] Christa Biegler, RD: Where I live, having someone come and do something was not even really an option. Sure ... like getting someone to deliver an appliance is almost not even an option where I live. Like something they can sell new. And so it's like what can I do on my own? And I've done a lot of home improvement and home building things, and so it's like- you almost have to have some knowledge around it because- maybe the people you're working with actually do not have all of the knowledge that they need. So contain the space, remove the mold, small particle cleaning, so we'll talk about what that means next, and then cleaning the air.

[00:09:59] Christa Biegler, RD: And I think one of the problems is, like, how people sometimes go into this is, one, denial, Yes ... first, and then two, I got an air purifier or an air filter. And that's a whole big topic. Well, we have done some dedicated stuff because the JASPER people came on, and it took me about a year before I was like, "I really do like my JASPER."

[00:10:18] Christa Biegler, RD: But I bring that up only because the guy who started that company used to do both mold remediation and stuff for smoke damage issues. And so he was familiar with using these commercial air scrubbers. And so they'll literally pull the things out, whereas other air filters, it's usually filtering through.

[00:10:34] Christa Biegler, RD: So you can share whatever you want about that as well. But what people do incorrectly is, one, denial, and two, I just put an air filter in and I'm a little bit better, right? It's like, okay, yeah, it makes some sense 'cause it's grabbing some of the stuff, and so it makes sense. And again, not everyone is that case, so I think something is better than nothing.

[00:10:50] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. But I'll put in right here, and this might be a beautiful segue into what small particle cleaning is, et cetera. What we have seen working with humans i- awesome, is literally they will do a massive cleaning, like removing- ... of dust in different areas and say, "I am so much better." Or even that may have actually stirred up some symptoms if they're stirring up, because- Yeah

[00:11:13] Christa Biegler, RD: mold loves to consume dust as well. And and I remember Michael Ruvino saying that. It's like if you can just remove the dust more often, and I'm not saying I'm some perfect human. No, yeah. It's just that these are reminders of oh, okay, I literally have on my list today, I was like, "Clean these two windowsills."

[00:11:28] Christa Biegler, RD: Like- ... or in my bathroom I notice it gets more, whatever, dusty in literally the screen. And so it's removing that. When we've had people, do that and remove the actual dust, they're like, "Oh my gosh, this is actually noticeably different and noticeably better," because they're actually removing more of the- Yeah

[00:11:45] Christa Biegler, RD: mold than they think. So let's talk about what small particle cleaning is, 'cause it's one of these pieces of the verbiage of the industry, I feel.

[00:11:53] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Yeah. Totally, yeah. So small particle cleaning in the sense of, too, we can dive into the aerosol aspect, but traditionally, and it was let me pull up for sure, John Banta was kind, the widely known as this leading expert kinda starting off in terms of wiping down the surfaces.

[00:12:11] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Or the fact you have a remediation that occurs, but again, what about the other areas of the home where the mycotoxins kinda traveled to, or the other par- smaller particles have traveled to? So it's kind of this series of steps of vacuuming, damp wiping, dry dusting and basically cleaning all surfaces in the home.

[00:12:32] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Even you can get into, with certain things, you can put 'em in the dishwasher. But basically, it's the idea of removing the dust or removing those small particles that obviously you can't necessarily see- ... but can be irritating the body. So yeah, a series of steps for really just cleaning the home.

[00:12:47] Christa Biegler, RD: Okay, so it was vac, damp wiping, dry du- so there are, like, actually four steps for that. And not that it has to be overwhelming in that way, but one of the things, I think what stands out online is when people argue about what's right and wrong. Yeah. And sometimes that isn't super helpful.

[00:13:03] Christa Biegler, RD: But what would you maybe say are best practices or maybe things to avoid when looking at products or not first of all, do people need a product when they're small particle cleaning?

[00:13:13] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Yeah, so let's start with the vacuuming aspect. So the goal ideally is having a HEPA vacuum, so it's well sealed off.

[00:13:20] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: If you're not getting a well-sealed-off vacuuming, basically you're vacuuming everything up but kinda redistributing it into the home. So that proper HEPA vacuum is essential there for at least step one. I know some people, too, even discuss whether or not they do want a vacuum. Sometimes they'll just actually dry wipe.

[00:13:38] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Obviously it's you learning what works best for you, but traditionally speaking, it's the HEPA vacuuming that's recommended. Then when we move on to the damp wiping of all these harder surfaces, so to speak you're basically using either a microfiber or Swiffer-like cloth, and then you're spraying it, and we refer to it more as this surfactant cleaner.

[00:14:00] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: So I know a lot of times in the mold space, a lot of the biocides, fungicides we wanna kill the mold with bleach all the different things there. That isn't the goal with small particle cleaning, and it's because those biocides actually kill the mold and break it down into smaller pieces that can still irritate the immune system.

[00:14:22] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: So if you're just killing, so to speak, the mold without removing it, it's- ... still in the air likely to cause symptoms. And for some people, those smaller symptoms are actually more irritating to the immune system than the actual mold, the mycotoxins it was producing itself. So with this surfactant cleaner that we're utilizing when you're damp wiping all the surfaces is basically like a, let's call it a more non-toxic soap.

[00:14:48] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: So Branch Basics comes up a lot of times in conversation. Even just I'm trying to think of my Ecos dish soap, the free and clear option. So you're putting five, six drops into about a quart of water, and that literally is the cleaner. So it's like, how can I say? A little crazy to think in terms of I know with cleaning and thinking of my mom's generation growing up with all, like- the in... you gotta disinfect everything. We're actually not prioritizing, like, disinfecting or these hard, harsh cleaners. At this point in time, it's literally dish soap and water to fully... basically what it does is lift up the mold from the surface, and it surrounds the particles themselves, and then you're- able to wipe them all away with your cloth versus killing a hole in the cell wall. It's breaking down into smaller pieces- ... and still floating around. So that's kind of the gist, or at least the reason behind utilizing the surfactant cleaner.

[00:15:44] Christa Biegler, RD: It's how our body uses bile.

[00:15:45] Christa Biegler, RD: Package- Yes. ... it all up and move it on out. The same thing.

[00:15:48] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: No, that's totally what I've thought of with this conversation too. And then step three, so utilizing the dry wiping all the surfaces, so that's just like your standard Swiffer cloth, 'cause it has a lot of those, they call it electrostatic properties that kind of attach or pick up all the particles that are lingering after you've vacuumed, damp wiped.

[00:16:10] Christa Biegler, RD: I was just thinking about, I was with somebody, we were at an antique store like last week- ... and she said, "Ugh, being around all these old magazines and books is making me sneeze." And, it's like again, that dust or those materials that are not very easy to clean. Like- ... there are materials that are not maybe easy or possible to be small particle cleaned.

[00:16:31] Christa Biegler, RD: I hope that I'm saying that right, so I wanted you to cover that, 'cause that's one of the questions that I don't really feel like it's up to us. I think, feel like people have to individually decide this, but- Yeah ... people have asked us, it's like you can wipe down a dresser or you can wipe down a desk.

[00:16:45] Christa Biegler, RD: You can wipe down a wall, right? And even walls have some porous features, right? There's a lot of things- ... that are semi-porous, which is always questionable. So but textiles can be washed, right? With ... And I always recommended enzymatic cleaners, which may break things down as a little bit more of a biocide.

[00:17:01] Christa Biegler, RD: I don't know if you have different feelings about that now going through things. I always felt like, because so often I think people can leave things in the wash, and they can actually develop any kind of bacteria or whatnot.

[00:17:11] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Yeah. Yeah, totally.

[00:17:11] Christa Biegler, RD: And as someone who tried to cloth diaper once upon a time, and then- definitely regretted, like it was like not as- romantic as I thought it would be. I at that point got into enzymatic cleaners, so I still like them. Sure. I still recommend them. Some of the companies we like their products recommend them. But anyway, I don't think it's a bad thing.

[00:17:27] Christa Biegler, RD: I'll be curious what you say about you can wash certain textiles, but like some things like a mattress where you spend a third of your time- ... cannot always be cleaned. So what would you say about generally things that maybe cannot be small particle cleaned- and how people can handle those?

[00:17:41] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Yeah, and I feel like this is where a lot of fear, the huge storylines come up in the mold space of "Oh, we had to get rid of everything." But, it's always a case-by-case situation, and it's always- ... how do you react? So even going into this current process in our current home how can I say, looking back on past exposures and experiences of being in a home I know that had mold, being more symptomatic, and actually, like, recalling the time where, oh, moving out and I felt better, but I didn't obviously do any of this small particle cleaning- type things. So some of that obviously you're gonna learn based on your body. But yeah, with certain materials, so to speak, if they're porous, and obviously if they've been in the room where you are... They've been in the room with the true exposure, sometimes you're gonna be, like, question them a little bit more.

[00:18:31] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: But a lot of times and what was even cool about the recommendations from the IEP we received, he's a fan of actually, like, taking the more porous items out of the home. I'm thinking of a chair cushion, like we're gonna do. And you can actually still vacuum them, and he's a fan too of I'm trying to think of the air compressor, and like blowing- them off and still wiping- ... them down. And obviously you're gonna strategically bring them back into the home, see how you feel, that sort of thing. But that's more for the bigger furniture pieces- ... that are more cloth-based. But yeah, other items, like your clothes, so forth, you can throw into the washing machine, add in some Borax.

[00:19:09] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: I'm not necessarily opposed to the enzymatic cleaning 'cause of the fact like you're still like washing it down. It's not like you- ... just sprayed the cloth with your enzymatic cleaner and-

[00:19:19] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah, call it a day ... like

[00:19:20] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: just leaving it there. So it's still like washing things away. But yeah, I believe the more common rec in is utilizing some sort of Borax, different ratios kinda there. Again, it kinda takes away the fear like, "Oh my gosh, I have to get rid of everything." It's just no, there... You're still cleaning things and, as best as you can, removing all those small particles off the surface.

[00:19:41] Christa Biegler, RD: I think a couple things to say here is that everyone's got different thresholds of what they can handle- Yes.

[00:19:45] Christa Biegler, RD: ... And what they're tolerating, which people are frustrated by any gray area, right? They want it to just be black and white. Yeah. And it's like some of us are gonna get away with sometimes that exposure. Like for example, if we go back to your first home- ... where you were working on something, I think that pipe burst was in the basement, which is still very important.

[00:19:59] Christa Biegler, RD: Like for example, where my leak was in the basement it needed to be handled. I wasn't sleeping in the bathroom in the basement, you know- Yeah ... every day. So like it was affecting... So I think it makes... Sometimes we need to remember that even though both you and your husband started to have symptoms, which is in some ways a bit of a convenience rather than- one partner having symptoms, because then when only one person or two people out of the family are having any... And often what we see is the symptoms are not the same for people. People have different symptoms, and so they don't really realize that they're always- connected. Unless they're, like, horrific, which in that case is not the best-case scenario at all.

[00:20:37] Christa Biegler, RD: But it can be all over the place, like someone waking up with a sore throat and then it gets better, right? Whereas someone else maybe has itchy eyes or sneezing or- ... it could honestly be anything. Skin stuff- Anything ... just generalized fatigue, overall. You brought up a word. I'll come back to practitioners and IEP and what that means.

[00:20:52] Christa Biegler, RD: I just wanna- ... put a little mark there and highlight it. We are talking through some of the things that people don't always agree, disagree. So we talked through what is small particle cleaning, the steps for that, the types of cleaners used for that, right? I wanna mention before we leave that conversation, one of the other things people have talked about online for years is like, "Oh, it's inappropriate to use bleach," right?

[00:21:13] Christa Biegler, RD: Because it's like- ... water-based, but you're over here talking about literally using water to remove, 'cause we're using a surfactant, which is encapsulating it and removing it. So will you cover bleach? And then we'll go to another debated- Yeah ... topic.

[00:21:25] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Yeah, and I wanna say the bleach, it's still a biocide in the aspect.

[00:21:29] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: I wanna say it's the hydrochloric acid, hypochlorous acid- ... one of the acids, so to speak, that's still, like, deteriorating the actual cell, so to speak- ... of the microbe. So that's why it falls under that category even though, yeah, maybe bleach still contains water in a sense, but it's not the same the actual, like, when you think of the molecular chemistry, which I find- ... so fun to learn about. ... Yeah, two different things. Completely different things happening to the actual cell of the microbe again.

[00:21:59] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. Okay. Another thing that we have had some success with for clients, but it's almost tricky, and I think one of the things that is probably relevant to talk about in a bit here is sometimes we're talking through this cleaning process, and I'm going through a time of life where I'm like, "Yay, I'm getting rid of things-" Yeah ... and I'm cleaning things out 'cause I don't have tiny children anymore, and it's time, and that's just a phase I'm like I'm looking forward to getting rid of things.

[00:22:24] Christa Biegler, RD: And I know that's always you. But for a lot of people, it can feel overwhelming, and so I feel like- ... not only, it's like people are at different places and different capacities, and we often- ... are in the scenario where it's like you have a lot of symptoms when you kind of lack capacity and space in your life, and your plate is already pretty full.

[00:22:42] Christa Biegler, RD: Plus, if you're exposed to any kind of toxin, it excites your nervous system even more and makes you- ... even more I'll call it hypervigilant, more stressed and frazzled- Yeah ... a little bit, right? You, neuroexcitatory. Yeah ... so we can come back to sometimes how that presents.

[00:22:56] Christa Biegler, RD: So I just wanna acknowledge that. That's the sucky part of going through this.

[00:22:59] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: and I don't think for anyone this is fun, granted I've even- No ... fun I've been cleaning out my parents' home and getting rid of stuff. That side of things is fun. But yeah, it is a big undertaking, and especially acknowledging when you are extremely symptomatic.

[00:23:13] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Luckily, I feel like I've had or have been increasing capacity in a lot of ways right now. But if I would've thought back to any point in time beforehand- ... yeah, it would be very overwhelming. So I feel this is where, again- Obviously you can hire people, in a sense. Granted, that has a whole financial aspect- and burden.

[00:23:33] Christa Biegler, RD: And honestly, I've told people who are overwhelmed by the concept of dusting, I was like, "But you can actually hire someone to come and dust." That's not- Oh,

[00:23:40] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: yes ...

[00:23:40] Christa Biegler, RD: something. You just give them instructions, right? It's oh, you're actually just doing deep cleaning sometimes, right? And that's okay to do at any point, and we all- it's just part of life for all of us, to some extent.

[00:23:50] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Yeah. That's when we... And I think the fact too we'll even, obviously we're just still talking about mycotoxins, actual, like, remediation, small particle cleaning, but when you're thinking of the other bacteria endotoxins or just whatever else that can build up in the environment, I do think it emphasizes it's worthwhile, it is worthwhile to keep your house clean and even from a health investment kind of standpoint.

[00:24:13] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: If you're gonna spend however much on supplements per month-

[00:24:16] Christa Biegler, RD: yeah ...

[00:24:16] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: kind of view it in that way of oh, it is worthwhile to have this c- cleaner. 'Cause we've e- even had the conversation here at home, this might spark a different thing we can dive into, but the actual cost of the electricity for running your dehumidifier, running your air exchanger continuously versus at different intervals throughout the course of the day, like viewing that as this is truly an investment in my health for my air, our overall air quality.

[00:24:43] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: I'd rather spend my money there than on 10,000 whatever protocol- ... supplements, retro- Yeah ... or, non-proactively. So- An,

[00:24:52] Christa Biegler, RD: an underrated conversation. And literally, while we're talking about air- Yep ... I think this is a good time to transition into HVAC or in the US- I don't even remember what HVAC stands for, but essentially the heating and air conditioning system. Yeah. And this can become quite a topic because there's a lot of opinions about how this should be done or if it should be done. Some people would say You should do HVAC maintenance twice a year.

[00:25:17] Christa Biegler, RD: Some people say you should clean your vents at least annually. I remember it was years before... So I moved into this house in 2010. I live in a field in the middle of nowhere. There's a lot of dirt. There's not a lot of paved roads. And I remember the first time I had someone clean the vents, he was like, "Oh, yeah, that needed to be done."

[00:25:36] Christa Biegler, RD: "I got a whole-" ... "bag full of stuff." I'm like, "That is gross." But we were doing literal construction in the basement for a long time, and I didn't know. I'm sure all of that stuff ended up in the HVAC. But some people would say "Oh, if you do that, if you stir up the air with that, you could-" "cause more symptoms." So talk about what you've learned about how to handle the HVAC overall, 'cause we've seen maybe both sides of this.

[00:26:00] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Yeah, and I think this is still an open conversation and, again, a very individual case-by-case kind of situation. 'Cause this is even something I'm gonna bring up with our IEP 'cause he did note...

[00:26:11] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: or how can I say it? Being in the CIRS community, in a CIRS space, I've definitely seen scenarios where someone just coming in cleaning the ducts so to speak, and stirring up everything into the air, regardless of them small particle cleaning afterwards, has still, yeah, irritated, so to speak- the air quality, let's call it.

[00:26:30] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah.

[00:26:31] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: So have seen that side, whereas also some other professionals just recommend truly when it comes to HVAC maintenance, you're kinda thinking about the actual air handler unit itself, the coils the drip drain line, the condensate drain line. Keeping that clean should ultimately prevent at least mold growth in the system, in the ducts, all of that.

[00:26:54] Christa Biegler, RD: And generally, someone who's coming to do any maintenance on the HVAC system, we are not to the point where this is even a conversation that people- ... are aware of- Yeah ... whatsoever. So it's a tricky thing.

[00:27:04] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: and it's interesting 'cause my uncle's a plumber in, in the HVAC realm, and my other uncle has truly installed HVAC units, and I'm over here bringing these conversations up, and they're just "Eh."

[00:27:14] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: But that's because every unit they're, like, looking in or it's just so common for them to see things going on that they're like, " you're not gonna avoid them," so to speak. But you truly can. So it's yeah, finding- So they're

[00:27:27] Christa Biegler, RD: saying they see stuff all the time. Yes.

[00:27:28] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Yes. Yep. Yep. He's like, "No."

[00:27:31] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Or my one uncle, I was like, "Oh, here can you read through this cool HVAC guide I created?" He's like, "No, you're gonna find it in all of them," like, bypassing it off. But granted that's just how different people have learned or what their experience has been. That was even the case for my dad too, is like addressing mold 'cause in our current home it's in the basement.

[00:27:50] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Oh, I see it in all the basements around here 'cause he has a excavation company. But it's like, okay, no this is where conversations like this come into play of, like-

[00:27:59] Christa Biegler, RD: I know ...

[00:27:59] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: how can we prevent this, better learn even as homeowners what we should be aware of just- I know ... to prevent this from happening.

[00:28:06] Christa Biegler, RD: It's I think this kind of explains why we have seen this. So it's once you understand that this is where it's getting traced back to, it's oh, I'm sorry a lot of the symptoms in the world are like- ... this is related no matter what. Yeah. And so people are like, "Why is this becoming a more common conversation?"

[00:28:20] Christa Biegler, RD: It's oh, it's actually just awareness-

[00:28:22] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Yeah, totally ... on top

[00:28:23] Christa Biegler, RD: of it a little bit. That's part of the frustration. And so we get to do our due diligence to do our very best. Okay. So if you are a home o- owner who wants to take care of your HVAC as best as possible-

[00:28:35] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Yeah ...

[00:28:35] Christa Biegler, RD: and not have issues, but you can't find someone to help you with it is there a few...

[00:28:40] Christa Biegler, RD: there's probably not a defin- this conversation is not a definitive guide to- ... HVAC whatsoever.

[00:28:43] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Totally.

[00:28:43] Christa Biegler, RD: But were there things that you found that are like, "Okay, I can at least do this on my own to some extent"?

[00:28:49] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Yeah, like

[00:28:50] Christa Biegler, RD: definitely- Or anything ...

[00:28:51] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: becoming familiar with your HVAC unit in general.

[00:28:54] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: I feel-

[00:28:55] Christa Biegler, RD: Things we didn't know we wanted to know ...

[00:28:57] Christa Biegler, RD: I do not know about you, but I feel the change of season is upon us. And for many people, it's back to school or back to work, or for me, it's back to focus. And I wanted to share a few tools that I'm using that might make this transition a little easier for you as well. Now, first of all, if you've got a kiddo that gets stressed or anxious about school or sports and, and/or you just don't like taking supplements by mouth, have you tried this Mag Relief lotion from Jigsaw?

[00:29:25] Christa Biegler, RD: A lot of topical magnesium sprays burn, but this lotion has zero smell, zero burn, and it contains organic oils and my favorite kind of topical magnesium, which is OptiMSM. You can just put some on. Usually, it's gonna be legs and feet, but you can put it wherever you want on your body. Put some on after exercise, before bed to help with sleep and stress.

[00:29:45] Christa Biegler, RD: Another type of magnesium that I am adding to my rotation is the Brain Boost from Jigsaw. It's mag threonate, which means that it's the type of magnesium that crosses your blood-brain barrier to help with focus. And in studies, beyond focus, it also helps with deeper sleep, which then helps improve daytime alertness and reduce grouchiness.

[00:30:07] Christa Biegler, RD: So if you have not tried the Brain Boost mag threonate from Jigsaw, it might be helpful for getting back into the swing of things. That's what I'm gonna go ahead and try. And then finally, I am still drinking this very licious Electrolyte Supreme with a splash of sparkling mineral water on repeat. It's kind of like one of those sparkly energy drinks, but better for you because it's a combo of a multivitamin, vitamin B, minerals, and electrolytes without a vitamin flavor at all.

[00:30:39] Christa Biegler, RD: So in September, Jigsaw is giving Less Stressed Life listeners a special increased discount of 15% off any order as many times as you want with the code LESSSTRESS15. That's for the entire month of September. You can take 15% off with the code LESSSTRESS15, and they're sending out a free stainless water bottle to anyone with a new electrolyte subscription.

[00:31:00] Christa Biegler, RD: So if you miss the 15% off code in September, no problem. You can always get 10% off any order anytime with LESSSTRESSED10 as the code. As always, thank you so much for supporting this podcast and using our codes at jigsawhealth.com.

[00:31:18] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: yeah, things you didn't wanna know. But opening up that air handler unit, looking at the coil, is there any mold growth there? Is there, on the fan, any mold growth, or is it dusty just in general? That's a big thing. My parents have... this home is 12, 13 years old. Have we ever dusted the- HVAC coil or - ... fan. No. So that can be cleaned with the Branch Basic solution that I've talked about, a good scrubby brush, that sort of thing. Granted, this is the caveat, too, where sometimes it might be worthwhile to have your HVAC professional out in terms of showing you how to remove- the pieces or, properly clean them from their perspective. Just don't use their, like, biocides or that sort of thing. You have your solution ready to go. So yeah, just opening up the air handler unit and just kinda taking note of what's going on there. A lot of people find issues if their air handler unit is set up on a piece of wood, and if that drip pan at all leaked or the condensate- line leaked, and then it's- ... dripping directly onto wood, typically they'll find some growth there. So at least it's like, okay, awareness of what's going on.

[00:32:23] Christa Biegler, RD: I've heard that it should not be on the floor either, right? So you're talking about it being set up on wood, but if it's being set up...

[00:32:28] Christa Biegler, RD: If it's just on the floor it can be an issue as well. Yeah. It needs to have some ventilation all the way around it,

[00:32:32] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: totally. And then some people, if your line isn't actually properly draining at a slope- yeah ... even that in and of itself these are very basic things you can be aware of, but if no one's ever taught you, then of course- Yeah

[00:32:44] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: you don't know what to pay attention to. So that would kinda be, yeah, the top things. Obviously, people are aware of changing their filters. We could chat about filters. But yeah, that's again, where if any sort of true water issue is gonna occur, more than likely- ... it's happening there.

[00:32:58] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Granted, you wanna make sure your air ducts are properly insulated, 'cause if it's- ... hot air on cold air, and if there's any gaps or the air is kind of- seeping out, so to speak, that could also be an area where mold could occur. But yeah, most of the time it's just properly maintaining that actual air handler unit.

[00:33:16] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. And understanding some of this stuff is helps it last longer, right? Yeah. And hopefully saves a lot of money, Yeah ... versus replacing. I know we get to learn things at different times and I remember having a past guest come on and talk about using, a really, I guess I'll call it a dense air filter with a high MERV rating.

[00:33:35] Christa Biegler, RD: And I put- ... that in one of our Airbnbs, and what happened next was that the air conditioner just froze up, so that was cool- ... as well. So it's balancing some of these things to figure out what's gonna work in your home, and why wouldn't that work? What's actually happening?

[00:33:47] Christa Biegler, RD: Can it even get through? So there's always a couple sides- ... to every story, but that was a

[00:33:51] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: good- They're thinking the higher the filter, the better the filtration, but does that not allow enough airflow and then- ... create issues elsewhere? Yeah, totally.

[00:33:59] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. Okay.

[00:33:59] Christa Biegler, RD: So we talked through HVAC, cleaners, small particle cleaners. You talked through a little bit of textiles. I will say that when we used to, in the very early days, And I'm not saying we wouldn't necessarily... we have a lot of different kind of guides around these topics- and you have been working on a ton. You've done a ton of updating on those in the last few months just because of your new experiences- ... and different learnings. But there are these plates out there that people sometimes put in their environment that just grow- fungus, I guess the medium.

[00:34:31] Christa Biegler, RD: And I will say that traditionally, anytime anyone ever tapped it on any textile, it always grew lots of things. And so alls I can take from that is oh, there's probably an opportunity for us to all clean. And you'll see that stuff- ... sometimes online. It's there's an opportunity for us to clean our textiles in general, I would say.

[00:34:48] Christa Biegler, RD: There's more there than we sometimes think- ... probably.

[00:34:51] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Yeah. Or I just think too, this is maybe a weird perspective to have, but obviously, what is it, homes before the 1950s or earlier homes, they weren't as airtight. So nothing was... I just view it as a little hot box, so to speak, of all these particles sitting in here.

[00:35:05] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Or even times when, granted Jack and I just watched Little House on the Prairie, and thinking of American Indians and even your log homes and all that they were just less airtight, so you're getting, granted, more airflow. Granted, you also have to kinda think about your outdoor environment and what air is kinda coming into the home as well.

[00:35:24] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: But just again, we're in these kinda little hot boxes, and if you're not cleaning 'em, of course gunk, so to speak, is kind of- ... building up, in a sense.

[00:35:32] Christa Biegler, RD: I know. I wish... I don't have the stats, but I sometimes see people talk about stats of how the indoor air quality is actually much worse than the outdoor air quality.

[00:35:40] Christa Biegler, RD: Even though I live in the country and there's lots of dust and whatnot- ... it doesn't prevent me from opening my windows, because- Certainly ... I actually do wanna ventilate. And I would say the Europeans, they have some biases around... It's very interesting- Different countries especially, I wanna say the Scandinavian countries, they'll even open their windows.

[00:35:56] Christa Biegler, RD: It's very common- ... in their cultures, I believe, to open their windows in the wintertime. But a lot of European... And I've had two European exchange students- ... and they're very anti- like air conditioning, right? Because they're like- ... "Oh, that's how you get sick." And so it's like, what is your experience with- Yeah

[00:36:12] Christa Biegler, RD: HVAC systems, right? They're like, "Oh, this is how..." I remember one of them was like, "Oh, I was sick for two weeks when I moved here because of the air conditioning" and I'm like, "Interesting, interesting-" ... "interesting." Okay, so we talked through HVACs. We talked about surfactant cleaning. Oh, I wanted to talk about we're, small particle cleaning, talking about that verbiage.

[00:36:29] Christa Biegler, RD: It's just vernacular specific to this mycotoxin, biotoxin industry. But you brought up another piece of terminology, IEP. So you at some point in your journey pursued an environmental consultant. Yes. And so will you talk about that process, what you learned, your experiences- Yeah ... what you would change, et cetera, and like define IEP, for example?

[00:36:50] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Yeah. So IEP is a indoor environmental professional, so it's kinda cool. They're like well-versed on all the building science even, like air ventilation in the home, just how air moves throughout the home, and just, yeah, all those environmental factors, EMFs. Even, considering the outdoor air, how that's influencing your indoor air as well.

[00:37:10] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: So ultimately when my husband and I got the diagnosis of CIRS or just being aware of oh, biotoxins do impact us a little bit differently or more intensely, we chose to consult with an IEP because . and again, this isn't to overwhelm people, but you do kinda wanna do things, so to speak, in the quote, unquote, "right order."

[00:37:30] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: And you do want a little bit more insight at least into your home specifically. Every home is different. That's too where I think sometimes it can get again, a little overwhelming hearing all this or all these general recommendations in the mold mycotoxin space. But ultimately it truly does come down to like your home itself.

[00:37:55] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: So that's I guess why we decided to kinda pursue moving forward with that. And even I could share too, my mom has had some symptoms. Ultimately thinking back on our big journey of why my husband and I decided to come back home here and improve the indoor air quality versus like just finding another rental unit and staying elsewhere- was kinda like, okay, we can improve the whole family's health. we can share costs on it or be collaborative there. And then, yeah, you're not tied up with a landlord or somebody else who maybe they want- you know, pursue or be interested in learning more or doing these different avenues- of support in the home. So we just felt more autonomy over improving things here, and we wanted to truly consult with a, so to speak, expert in that area. Because we were investing quite a bit of money or... And this was our next step, so to speak. Yeah.

[00:38:50] Christa Biegler, RD: How did you find the person you selected?

[00:38:52] Christa Biegler, RD: And are there other certifications or qualifications? Or was that like, okay, IEP. 'Cause there's building biologists, which I feel like is- ... less easy to find. Not that I've tried- ... to find them, but when I had originally started searching at different points of our collective journey.

[00:39:06] Christa Biegler, RD: So how did you decide on that certification? And then how did you find that person?

[00:39:11] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Yeah, so ultimately we were in a CERS group and just Paying attention to and collaborating, asking with the people in the group who they've utilized who's actually the IEP we ended up working with, very well known in the CIRS space, too.

[00:39:25] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Got on the phone call with him and just chatted through the success rate and just what they ultimately can offer. So yeah, that's ultimately then just how we decided to move forward with an IEP. I believe there are a variety of different... even if you just Google, they would come up, but the biggest thing I would make sure is if you do end up discovering CIRS is a part of your story making sure they're at least CIRS literate, that sort of thing.

[00:39:48] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: And what's cool is I want to say it's the CIRS-EX website that sort of thing. Like you, yourself, they have a course on proper remediation practices and all of that. You even yourself can learn some of these- ... insights or tricks of the trade, so to speak. Obviously you're paying to learn or- that sort of thing. But there are avenues or ways you can learn more specifically about what steps to take with CIRS specifically.

[00:40:12] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. I think this is a good time to point out, like I do see, I think, a lot... The majority of our clients- ... one thing I want to share with our clients is the ability to be autonomous and be able- to do things on their own so they don't feel like they are strapped to somebody- Yes. Yeah ... or reliant on someone forever. That's not our goal to ever make someone reliant on us. We really want people to be able to stand on their own two feet. But it is more normal for us to, and I think especially earlier in our health journeys, and

[00:40:39] Christa Biegler, RD: as our capacity is decreased, it's more common for us to want to outsource, right? Yeah. Or to rely on others. And so I just mention that because it's something that we've really observed over the years- ... as we try to... We really want people to stand on their own two feet, but some people,

[00:40:54] Christa Biegler, RD: we gather things, we learn things at different parts of our journey, right? And sometimes we have to get hit from things a couple different times- Yeah ... before we're like, "Okay, I have to slow down enough to understand what I'm doing," And

[00:41:04] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: what,

[00:41:05] Christa Biegler, RD: To stay the most-

[00:41:06] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Yeah.

[00:41:06] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Ultimately, and then what I'll even share here is so the IEP, he just created the inspection report of what they saw, recommendations, obviously doing everything in a sort of safe way. From there, they're not any of the contractors. They're not plumbers.

[00:41:21] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: They're not your HVAC guy. They're not any sort of builders or even the actual small particle cleaning company, remediation company themselves. So it's like they're being... I view it more of the brains of the- process as compared to the actual work itself. So this is where a lot of individuals, and I'm so grateful my dad's a handyman.

[00:41:43] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Obviously I just shared about my uncles, who are plumbers, all that. Granted, how open they are to the mold aspect, at least you can do the work yourself. Granted, if you're very symptomatic should you necessarily be doing the remediation process? No. My husband and I will not be doing any of the removal- cleaning, whatever. But all the builds back or the cleaning aspect we will end up doing, ... kind of ourselves. So yeah, it's like this balance of in what areas of the journey do you wanna ask for help or, like- ... get or consult with someone, but also realizing or as much as you wanna have autonomy over the journey too, you can.

[00:42:20] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. I would say, and then what would you say? You were just describing depending on the sensitivity, there were times in your journey where- ... you were much, much less stable. And you probably would consider yourself more stable, and I know you really talked more about that on the last episode.

[00:42:34] Christa Biegler, RD: So people can go listen to that and some of the catalysts there. Where would you say... I wonder if you could even rate yourself, like how you feel now versus when you- Yeah ... started this. And maybe even this is a good time to talk about how it can be common for people to want to flee a place.

[00:42:50] Christa Biegler, RD: And sometimes it is easy. Like sometimes people don't own a place, they're breaking a lease maybe a month or two, or their- ... lease is already coming up. Like, we've walked every possible scenario with- Yes ... clients, I feel like literally- I know ... everything. I'm like, "Oh, this is great for you.

[00:43:04] Christa Biegler, RD: I'm delighted you're able to move out, and it's unfortunate that someone else will move into that space." Yeah . And, 'cause that's the reality is it's really... that sucks. And that's why it's like being stewards of this planet is can we try to leave every place even better- Yeah ... than we found it, unfortunately.

[00:43:20] Christa Biegler, RD: It's like y- we start to get older and wiser, and it's like you don't run from things super well. But sometimes it makes sense. So will you talk a little bit about what that kind of looked like initially, and sometimes why it might feel good to flee a place or like- what sort of happens inside the body a little bit, this neuro-excitedness?

[00:43:35] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Yeah. Yeah, and I actually think or again, having sat with everything that occurred or when I'm more symptomatic, like to me it's actually cool that the body like alerts you and gets you- Yeah ... in that fight or flight state to get the-

[00:43:49] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah

[00:43:49] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: out

[00:43:50] Christa Biegler, RD: of there . Makes sense. I know. It's if you really think about all of your symptoms, like I tell this to people all the time with mucus stuff. It's like- ... but, the body makes mucus to expel it. So it's really just trying to encapsulate something that's bad and get rid of it for you.

[00:44:03] Christa Biegler, RD: If you ever think about it like that, it's like, "Thanks, body." Yeah. "That's pretty cool,"

[00:44:07] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: no, literally. So that's a lot of... Or how can I say, Yeah, like I could not sit down. Both my husband and I it's like you couldn't tap into... You're in, totally in your animalistic brain, and you're not in your or think things through brain.

[00:44:21] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: And you just have this sense of fear, like anything just irritates you. So just in our initial kind of experience with it being in that home, I was so neuro excitatory on, and even looking into it more. I know last episode I chatted about the histamine, the- ... adrenaline pumping through the body.

[00:44:39] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: And even glutamate, I want to say, is another excitatory neurotransmitter. So it was just such an state of flee run. It felt- ... easy to us. Okay, like we know there's an issue and don't know much more about it, but we're getting out of there. And a lot of clients do potentially resonate with that, and then also have had this opposite, a little bit of an opposite conversation with clients.

[00:44:58] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Someone brought up this mold hold, like a choke hold on you where- ... and this comes up, I feel, when clients get a little bit more... Or that neuro excitation goes on for so long, just like cortisol rises, but ultimately it's gonna- ... drop off, and then you're in the energy mitochondrial depleted state- Oh, yes

[00:45:18] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: where you have no energy. So then you actually never end up leaving the space either- ... or addressing things. Yeah, again, we've seen all ends of the spectrum. I feel like I've gone through all ends of the spectrum there. But I still feel like it's a roller coaster.

[00:45:30] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: But today I would say I feel at a 80% myself, whereas when really flaring probably feel at a 10, 20% yourself. Yeah. Capacity, all of that.

[00:45:41] Christa Biegler, RD: I know. I can say from someone who's known you for a very long time, and I think- ... other people who know you, we would be like, "Jenna's a grounded, calm- Yes

[00:45:49] Christa Biegler, RD: wise individual who's capable of, Thinking things ... like ground... Yeah All of these things. And it's when you were at, I'll say- ... your worst- ... it was like this is an unrecognizable version. I would say. Totally. It's not you whatsoever, which had to feel- And that, yeah ... so unsafe.

[00:46:07] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: And that even yeah, honestly irritated my body even more. Knowing so much of, like, how much I resonate with being, like, ground, calm, grounded, all of that to completely experience this, like- insanely adrenaline version of yourself was not comforting by any means.

[00:46:24] Christa Biegler, RD: Okay. Finally, this kind of is the perfect little final transition and you've talked a little bit about this. You just mentioned people can end up in a place where it's like you just stay because you've been in- ... in this depleted state. And what that looks like with that depleted mitochondria, eventually there can be parts of cell danger response or your body starts to I would say it evolves with either symptoms- Sure

[00:46:45] Christa Biegler, RD: or progresses in different ways. It can look like different chronic issues sometimes that you're like, "Oh, I'm just living with this. I don't know the reason," type thing. I think that's hard as a clinician. It's hard to see, 'cause I have that in my family, and it's it's hard to watch, you know- Oh, yeah

[00:47:01] Christa Biegler, RD: Sometimes when you cannot do something for someone. ... So I would ask about supporting the body So I guess the interesting thing right now, and just heard you say, I think the home you're in right now is just 12 years old. And so often it's kind of a misnomer. People are like, "Oh, this is new construction."

[00:47:17] Christa Biegler, RD: I was like, I essentially built my house also. Parts, aspects. So I can understand. It doesn't feel like I've been here 16 years. It's weird. And also we've had multiple opportunities to flex some of these skills, whether I wanted to or not. Usually at very inconvenient times.

[00:47:32] Christa Biegler, RD: Yep. 9:00 PM at night, I find some water leaking in somewhere. always a good time. But right now you are literally living in- ... a place that needs some support. Yep. And talk to us about how you're supporting your body if you're not immediately able to change the environment. I know that can vary depending on people's specific context and situation.

[00:47:52] Christa Biegler, RD: And also what happened in the current home? I don't think you mentioned that. So it's like, okay, you have a home that's really not even that old, right? 'Cause I think that's, again, just such a misnomer is any age. People can have brand-new construction- Yes ... and made with moldy lumber, 'cause our building materials have gotten cheaper and cheaper, which has not really been good for any of us, unfortunately.

[00:48:09] Christa Biegler, RD: So what are you doing to support yourself in the environment before things are perfect? Which is hard for the perfectionists- ... in the room, right?

[00:48:18] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Yeah. Or ultimately grateful for coming back here this time of year, 'cause trying to spend as much time outside. We learned outside, even though we're around some hay fields and all that, better obviously air quality as we're learning than the airtight home here.

[00:48:32] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: So doing that. I'm using binders as needed, but I'm also supporting my bile flow, so I'm... Like, this is where clients I know we work with, sometimes if you push on bile too much while you're still- ... in exposure or- ... push detox too much- ... it can backfire. Skin

[00:48:45] Christa Biegler, RD: flare.

[00:48:46] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Yeah, so you're definitely balancing the two there.

[00:48:50] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: I personally am not doing any, right now, heavy sort of antimicrobial killing- ... so to speak, work. But I'm doing some more, like, gentle avenues of support there with the gut, that sort of thing. Surprisingly, my gut has been pretty good. I would just say I resonate more with the neuro symptoms the most.

[00:49:07] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Really have loved B- vitamin B1 for helping- ... neuro symptoms there. That has been really helpful, I feel for me. And yeah. Otherwise, we have an air filter upstairs. One of the cool things, and this is what I'll dive into what happened in the home. So the biggest area of exposure is actually the basement itself.

[00:49:28] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: So our basement is closed off from the rest of the home. You enter through the garage. It's like- ... a cellar, I actually call it more, than a true basement. But with temperature differentials throughout the course of the year- ... condensation occurred there, and it just created a humid-

[00:49:42] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah

[00:49:43] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: environment at times, ... where a bunch of aspergillus popped up. So that's another thing when chatting about the environment. A lot of people are looking for the true water damage- ... flooded, heavy saturated molds- ... like chaetomium, Stachybotrys, or your black mold. But a lot of times it's the aspergillus species that still produce mycotoxins.

[00:50:03] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: They grow at 60, 65% humidity. So that's what popped up in our basement here.

[00:50:09] Christa Biegler, RD: I'm so glad you brought that up- ... 'cause, 'cause I think we talked a little bit about humidity last time. But we totally forgot to bring it up Yeah, I know ... today. And it's honestly probably, like if we would summarize, we should probably do that.

[00:50:20] Christa Biegler, RD: It's like we were gonna summarize, like what are some big areas of opportunity, potentially HVAC, removing dust, and just like- ... small particle cleaning in general in the house. And then the big tricky one is like humidity. You can, for 20 bucks-

[00:50:33] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Humidity conversation, yep ...

[00:50:34] Christa Biegler, RD: for 20 bucks you can humidity monitor.

[00:50:36] Christa Biegler, RD: And I think like sometimes we've seen all the things, like people try to buy one humidity meter and move it around the house. I'm like, please. Just buy a few. Actually, I will tell you this brand, I got online. So I have I've used different things different times 'cause When having Airbnbs, sometimes things go wrong- remotely. Oh,

[00:50:52] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: yeah.

[00:50:52] Christa Biegler, RD: So we've had, used different temperature sensors and things, but I was very pleasantly surprised. This brand I found on Amazon, G-O-V-E-E, was, like, super handy to set up. But anyway, I was, I'm, like, a big fan of hey, you can get a few for inexpensive and put them in different places, and if you're seeing huge swings or something...

[00:51:09] Christa Biegler, RD: I usually tell people if when you shower in the bathroom, it's gonna go up to probably 100%, but it should come back to your baseline within a couple of hours, and if not- ... you might have a ventilation thing. So that's, the rabbit hole. It's like, how are things ventilated overall?

[00:51:21] Christa Biegler, RD: And sometimes that stuff gets done improperly and we get ventilated into the attic, and then we have humidity in the attic, and then you have mold- ... growing there. Yeah. So these are just very common. It's follow the moisture, follow the humidity. We've done some things in our yard where we were, like, making some adjustments, and the dirt was almost indiscernibly sloping.

[00:51:41] Christa Biegler, RD: You couldn't really see it- ... unless, it rained. And then I saw it coming, and I was like, "Oh, my gosh." I went out and literally moved the dirt. Yep. It's it was really not rocket science, but it was like- ... hey, the water's gonna pour in down in the basement- Correct ... if the dirt slope is not perfect, you know- Right

[00:51:57] Christa Biegler, RD: away from the house. So I bring up humidity is just such an opportunity for us. Such an opportunity. I

[00:52:03] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: don't have- And then the other kind of... Then there was one other main issue we're aware of in the home, and I think I talked about this briefly in the past episode. So upstairs in the air handler HVAC unit room...

[00:52:15] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: So that is conditioned closed off, which is ideal. You don't really want your HVAC unit in an unconditioned space in the home. But that is right up against where kind of the unconditioned, let's call... it's still a conditioned attic, but the, Do you mean

[00:52:29] Christa Biegler, RD: temperature fluctuations?

[00:52:30] Christa Biegler, RD: You

[00:52:30] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: know what I- Yeah ... yeah. Yeah. So there was a little gap in... And this is totally caused by us. So we were actually looking for mold in the past but my dad didn't properly seal off that door- ... door, so to speak. So there was that airflow coming through of the hot air from the un-ACed attic to the ACed attic.

[00:52:48] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: And then condensation occurred, mold pop up in that little gap. But anyways, I share this kinda coming back to airflow and all of that, and how even helping... We haven't fully removed that 'cause we were waiting on our remediation plan. But just closing off, obviously, that gap, and then- taping it off with plastic, less likely to get airborne. Because literally our inspector, he showed us with his little cool smoke pen how with that little gap occurring in the wall there- The air was literally coming up and then flowing out- ... into where my husband and I have our upstairs loft space, so to speak.

[00:53:26] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: So it's just wild- ... even knowing, like, where the air is flowing. Obviously, the mycotoxins- ... or the mold mycotoxins are there- Yeah ... traveling in the home. So even just closing that up tell-

[00:53:36] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah.

[00:53:37] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: That's the- so it's wild. You, I mean-

[00:53:38] Christa Biegler, RD: I it's so tricky for us- Yeah ... the things we cannot see, right?

[00:53:41] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. So it's fun when someone can make something really visible.

[00:53:43] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Yeah, and then that's where, again, vocalizing and all this overwhelmed fear that comes up in this space, I think it's just 'cause you don't know what to do, or you don't have the knowledge, the capacity, or the tools, per se, to address the issue.

[00:53:55] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: So of course you're gonna become anxious "Oh my gosh, where's the mold in the home?" But it's as you continue learning and feeling empowered with the information on how you can prevent things, all this- ... mold is a way less, like, trigger, alarming topic-

[00:54:09] Christa Biegler, RD: yeah

[00:54:09] Christa Biegler, RD: for you. I agree. I agree. It's "Oh, okay, I gotta find something..." And, really part of this comes through experiences. I think- if I had to describe I've mentioned a couple of these already, but another thing that comes up sometimes that I will call it a misnomer or a my coach would've called it a thought error, is that we have to figure everything out all at once, because ti- ... we're on this specific timeline, and if we don't know right now everything, like- ... something's wrong, right?

[00:54:33] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Yeah.

[00:54:34] Christa Biegler, RD: I think, sometimes our ability to learn and execute and do the things just does take a little bit of time. We would love, we all wanna feel as awesome as possible- Yeah

[00:54:43] Christa Biegler, RD: as soon as possible, but sometimes we have to go at our own pace and capacity- ... with some of those pieces. And I'm curious, with the humidity in the basement- ... 'cause you said it's more of a cellar, so I'm curious what the remediation will look like, 'cause I'm guessing it's concrete, right? Yeah.

[00:54:56] Christa Biegler, RD: And there's not... So I'm curious what that will actually look like, 'cause it's a porous material. Or if it is partly... Yeah I'm just curious how that will go.

[00:55:03] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Yeah, so a majority of it's on the wood. There's a little bit on the concrete. So we are totally kinda, like, demoing as much as we can down there, bringing it up, all of that.

[00:55:13] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: ... I wanna say, and again, Don't quote me on this but sometimes if there's, obviously with the concrete blocks or whatever, we're gonna try to scrub clean it. But then I believe you can seal it off with some certain mixture of glue, so forth. Again, don't quote me on any of this.

[00:55:28] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: But there are, yeah, avenues to support that. And then even the end goal is, okay, what... And this is what we're gonna chat through with our IEP a little bit more. Maybe this isn't necessarily is a thing we can 100% prevent, control, that sort of thing. But, like, how do we, keep the space as ideal as possible moving forward- Yeah

[00:55:47] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: after the re- Yeah

[00:55:51] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: renovation and so forth,

[00:55:52] Christa Biegler, RD: yeah. Yeah. And at the end of the day, these are homes, right? So we get the opportunity to make our home- ... as healthy of a place as possible because the reality is this affects our health, and our health is- Yeah ... we value our health. The people listening to this value their health.

[00:56:06] Christa Biegler, RD: But I feel like I get constant reminders, especially as I inch along in age. And I have friends or colleagues or it's like things that pop up that are really significant, right? And it's yeah, we're all trying to love on and support our systems as much as possible- ... and the environment just does make a big difference.

[00:56:22] Christa Biegler, RD: And, like- ... little pieces, it's like, hey, for 20 or $30 of humidity meters, you can have a lot of insight, right?

[00:56:28] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Yeah.

[00:56:28] Christa Biegler, RD: For a couple hundred dollars and people helping you dust, you could have a lot of- ... improvement, right? Yep. By learning a little bit about your HVAC, you could potentially save thousands and- thousands of dollars maybe, right? From replacing... i'm just saying there's opportunities and hopefully ending on, leaving it with that note- ... as optimistic, right? 'Cause sometimes the internet doesn't feel very optimistic- No.

[00:56:49] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: Yeah. ...

[00:56:50] Christa Biegler, RD: with this topic, which is, part of the reason we wanted to have this conversation- which again, there's still so much to cover. And like I said, you have recently gone through and just kinda overhauled a lot of our client support guides- ... around this topic as well. And we'll consider the things that we've talked about and drop some if we have any coupon codes, we'll drop those in the show notes as well.

[00:57:08] Christa Biegler, RD: And if people wanna find you online, you're nutritiouslyjenna on Instagram. And you come over to https://christabiegler.com/ if you wanna fill out an application or learn any more about how we work with people. Is there anything else you wanna leave people with before we wrap?

[00:57:21] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: No. I think we dove into a lot of things.

[00:57:23] Jenna De Kok, MS, RD: But yeah, again, just ending on a more empowered note. And you don't have to know everything to- Yeah ... overnight. It's gonna take time. But like- Like life ... that's also the beauty of, yeah, being a human and the journey.

[00:57:35] Christa Biegler, RD: Exactly. Thank you so much for coming back and talking about this, Jenna.