On this episode of the Less Stressed Life, we're continuing our September focus on perimenopause with Integrative and Functional Registered Dietitian Nutritionist Kari Natwick to talk about how herbs can support women throughout the perimenopause transition.

We talk about why some women struggle more through perimenopause than others, how changing hormones can amplify stress on underlying systems, and why herbal support may look different depending on where you are in the transition. Kari shares herbs for hot flashes, sleep, mood, libido, and nervous system support, plus where herbs fit alongside HRT.

Check out Kari's other episode, #299 Mind-Body Connection for Chronic Gut Issues: https://www.buzzsprout.com/775589/episodes/12938540

🌿 WISE WOMAN ERA: Kari's 12-week group program for navigating perimenopause with support around hormones, nutrition, gut health, the nervous system, and herbal medicine: https://www.gutbrainrd.com/wise-woman

🎁 KARI'S FREE PRIVATE PODCAST: Go deeper into perimenopause myths and the roles of hormones, gut health, the nervous system, nutrition, and herbal medicine: https://app.helloaudio.fm/feed/f8c39ba9-f4cb-437d-815f-545bfb93a51b/signup

KEY TAKEAWAYS:
🌿 How herbs can support perimenopause
🌱 Vitex for early perimenopause
🫖 Nourishing herbs for minerals & vitality
🧠 Nervines for stress, mood & sleep
🔥 Herbal support for hot flashes & night sweats
💊 How herbs fit alongside HRT

ABOUT GUEST:
Kari Natwick, RDN, LD, IFNCP, is an Integrative and Functional Registered Dietitian Nutritionist and founder of Kari Natwick Nutrition | Gut Brain RD. She helps women navigate perimenopause by uncovering the biological story behind their symptoms and connecting gut health, the nervous system, metabolism, hormones, and the realities of modern life.

WHERE TO FIND GUEST:
Website: https://www.gutbrainrd.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/gutbrainrd

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TRANSCRIPT:

[00:00:00] Kari Natwick, RD: herbs work through much smaller and more indirect mechanisms. They modulate receptors. They calm a pathway. They support a gland if the gland is still functioning, And So I think it's a very different category of intervention, and it's not like the same swap for every woman.

[00:00:23] Christa Biegler, RD: I'm your host, Christa Biegler, and I'm going to guess we have at least one thing in common, that we're both in pursuit of a less stressed life. On this show, I'll be interviewing experts and sharing clinical pearls from my years of practice to support high-performing, health-savvy women in pursuit of abundance and a less stressed life.

[00:00:52] Christa Biegler, RD: One of my beliefs is that we always have options for getting the results we want, so let's see what's out there together.

[00:01:10] Christa Biegler, RD: All right, today on The Less Stressed Life I have back with me Kari Natwick, who is an integrative and functional registered dietician nutritionist. She helps women navigate perimenopause by uncovering their biological story behind their symptoms, connecting gut health, the nervous system, metabolism, hormones, and the realities of modern women's lives.

[00:01:30] Christa Biegler, RD: Known for helping women finally make sense of symptoms that have been dismissed, misunderstood, or treated in isolation, she helps women turn complex science into practical strategies that rebuild health from the inside out. Welcome back to the show, Kari. 

[00:01:43] Kari Natwick, RD: Thank you. 

[00:01:44] Christa Biegler, RD: I am just realizing that it's not your first time on the so now I'm looking to see...

[00:01:51] Christa Biegler, RD: Something that we've been doing, and this is not part of that, because this is part of the- perimenopause month that we're doing, but the last time you were here- I was there ... it was episode 299. I don't know when that was in time and space, but we're like in the- Me either ... 400s now, so- Oh 

[00:02:08] Kari Natwick, RD: my gosh. It was a long time 

[00:02:09] Christa Biegler, RD: ago then

[00:02:09] Christa Biegler, RD: who knows? Yeah, it was a long time ago. We were talking about mind-body connection for chronic gut issues at that time- Yeah ... which I'm sure was absolutely fabulous. And then sometimes I'm having fun, just asking people what's changed. It looks like 2023, May of 2023, so- Wow.

[00:02:27] Christa Biegler, RD: It's been three years ago ... exactly three plus years. Yeah, I know. It's kinda wild. 

[00:02:30] Kari Natwick, RD: that's a lifetime for me. 

[00:02:32] Christa Biegler, RD: For all of us, yeah. Oh, man. On that note, today we're talking about herbs and perimenopause, and speaking of a lifetime, I am curious about your own perimenopause story, if you want, or hormone story, or- whatever, Oh, let me go back in time, speaking of what's a lifetime. We have already talked for a full hour before we hit record, 'cause that's how long we've needed to catch up, because- Yes ... Carrie is like a long lost sister cousin- 

[00:03:02] Kari Natwick, RD: Totally ... 

[00:03:03] Christa Biegler, RD: from the Midwest misplaced on the West Coast.

[00:03:05] Christa Biegler, RD: And we met about 2021-ish in like a group of online business owners, and we were immediately like, "Oh, we are meant to be together," friends.

[00:03:15] Kari Natwick, RD: I was smitten. I was 

[00:03:16] Christa Biegler, RD: like- You were 

[00:03:17] Kari Natwick, RD: so excited ... I must no- This person must become my friend. It's non-negotiable. 

[00:03:21] Christa Biegler, RD: And so I know people can appreciate this.

[00:03:24] Christa Biegler, RD: It's like the best people are the people you can just pick up with- Absolutely ... and hang out, et cetera. Yeah. And so- Yeah ... we were very close for those first couple of years, but then we've seen each other a bit, and now we get to see each other in a couple of months, so I'm excited- about all of that. Yeah. But man we had a talk for an hour because we needed to catch up on this whole lifetime that's happened in the last five years. 

[00:03:44] Kari Natwick, RD: Yeah. 

[00:03:44] Christa Biegler, RD: So in this time since I've known you- 

[00:03:48] Kari Natwick, RD: Yeah ... 

[00:03:48] Christa Biegler, RD: you, this is what I know about Carrie. Her clients absolutely adore her because she's this warm I hope this is right, but this is how it feels, motherly energy.

[00:03:58] Christa Biegler, RD: She's telling me about- 

[00:03:58] Kari Natwick, RD: People say that to me all the time ... 

[00:04:00] Christa Biegler, RD: I mean- And I'm like, "Really? I don't..." ... you were talking about the mir- bird sanctuary you were trying to make. You were like, "I'm bringing all... I'm making the party house for the birds," 'cause we're both at that age. That's what I did. And we're, we had to compare birds right away.

[00:04:11] Christa Biegler, RD: Compare, 

[00:04:11] Kari Natwick, RD: yep. It was fun. In our Merlin app, like how many birds did you see in here today? What did your Merlin app say? I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I had 20 birds." I know. Ugh, so good. We're officially in that era of our lives. 

[00:04:21] Christa Biegler, RD: Oh, it's hilarious. I like to giggle at how absurd it is when I'm, this morning outside with my binoculars like, "Oh my gosh, cute little warblers."

[00:04:31] Christa Biegler, RD: Anyway, that's what I will say about that. Me too. But in these years that I've known you have these clients that have loved you, I'm feeling this as well. And I'm, stepping into the evolution because when I was ignoring the evolution- Yeah ... I was feeling really out of alignment or just resistance to continuing to do what I was doing.

[00:04:47] Christa Biegler, RD: And as humans, we evolve, and we're just taking our people with us. And I think I remember when you were getting very excited about herbs and perimenopause. I feel like you went through some additional ... You've always been a little apothecary human, right? I think we both- ... are very drawn to herbs. I love herbs as well.

[00:05:04] Christa Biegler, RD: That's what I grew up on in functional medicine. But you in the last, since that I've known you, have gone into more education. In fact, one of my favorite memories of us, we went to Boston to visit a friend, and she took us to a little herb farm. Oh, yes. And we had such a fun time- That's fun

[00:05:19] Christa Biegler, RD: picking herbs and- That was 

[00:05:20] Kari Natwick, RD: magical ... 

[00:05:21] Christa Biegler, RD: and that, you know- That's my happy 

[00:05:22] Kari Natwick, RD: place ... 

[00:05:22] Christa Biegler, RD: speaking of, I still have my Spilanthes. I don't know if you can see it. Do you? Yeah, on the shelf right here. Sorry if you're not a, a video watcher. Wow. But there is a jar of murky liquid on the shelf back there, and that is Spilanthes, which is the toothache herb.

[00:05:39] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. And I first tried it in a drink at a speakeasy also called a Buzz Button, and it makes your mouth numb for a little bit. Yeah. And so I picked a bunch. I, of course, brought it home on the airplane, put it in alcohol, and it's been waiting for me to have a toothache for the last three years- ... or four years, you 

[00:05:57] Kari Natwick, RD: better get on that. 

[00:05:58] Christa Biegler, RD: Anyway, so I apologize for all of the storytelling here. But let's talk about how you started falling in love, 'cause you were very ... I would say like, gut work was sort of- Yeah ... central to what you were doing. That's what we talked about. And always is.

[00:06:15] Christa Biegler, RD: Yes, of course. Yeah. Always. Yeah. And I think that's a good takeaway no matter what, is that- Just because we are entering a new phase of life doesn't mean supporting those basic systems doesn't apply. Oh, for sure. It applies as much or more, absolutely. It just becomes amplified almost.

[00:06:28] Christa Biegler, RD: So tell us about your love for all things perimenopause, because I remember voice notes with you, you saying, "Oh, I'm just... I feel really drawn to helping this population of women," so- 

[00:06:38] Kari Natwick, RD: I know ... tell us 

[00:06:39] Christa Biegler, RD: about your story 

[00:06:39] Kari Natwick, RD: here And I remember you were like, "Do it." And then that was before- 

[00:06:44] Christa Biegler, RD: Cheerleader

[00:06:45] Kari Natwick, RD: perimenopause became so popular. Like- ... now I feel like especially if you're in your 40s and 50s and you have an algorithm, like, all you're doing is getting hit by the perimenopause algorithm and menopause algorithm. Yeah, I think, One of the reasons that I really love working with women in perimenopause is because I like rewriting the story and the belief system that exists around- perimenopause. Most people, women, are taught that perimenopause is a time of your body falling apart, your life falling apart your body failing you, and I don't believe that whatsoever. My solid belief system is that- This is a time of rearranging, and that everything that shows up for us symptomatically for women that often these symptoms get dismissed.

[00:07:38] Kari Natwick, RD: And it's actually your body telling a very specific, very readable story about all the things that are happening underneath. What's happening with minerals, what's happening with your nervous system, what's happening with your gut, and then this story of what's happening with our hormones.

[00:07:54] Kari Natwick, RD: And I think women understand it more, but we still don't understand it enough. And I think when most women start experiencing symptoms of perimenopause, which, if you go to your conventional doctor, they're gonna be like, "Do you have any vasomotor symptoms? And are you missing your period, or is your period getting farther apart?"

[00:08:14] Kari Natwick, RD: You've actually missed the first five years of perimenopause. You know what I mean? 

[00:08:17] Kari Natwick, RD: I am now here to help this woman. This feels like it's my mission. And so I don't know. So it gets me really excited about working through all of these different layers, and I love pulling herbs into this because - as you said, I've done a lot of study in herbalism in the last couple of years.

[00:08:37] Kari Natwick, RD: And it just gives me a whole new lens and a whole new tool and a different level of support for women that it's not HRT, and we can talk about that. But It works at all of these other kinda layers that if you're ignoring them, perimenopause and menopause is going to be much more challenging for the average woman, for sure.

[00:08:59] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. We have on this month we've covered a lot of HRT, but we just have not covered using herbs as a helper in perimenopause. But I think, you know- ... trying to set the stage and understand, as you just said, sometimes before the more classical perimenopause symptoms show up, vasomotor symptoms like hot flashes, et cetera- Yeah

[00:09:17] Christa Biegler, RD: night sweats, things like that are more ... those are the extremely stereotypical symptoms- 

[00:09:23] Christa Biegler, RD: Of pena- perimenopause transition, menopause transition, we've already missed the early years. And so I'm curious if there's a part of your story as well, which there doesn't have to be.

[00:09:33] Christa Biegler, RD: But was there some ahas as you started to enter this phase or experience this phase of life? Was there any ahas? Because I think so often- For some reason, we have gone through some of the things that our clients go through now. So I'm curious if there's any parts of your story specifically that sort of Lit this catalyst for you a little bit. And then we'll go into talking a little bit about why some people breeze through perimenopause and some people do not. 

[00:10:00] Kari Natwick, RD: Yeah. This is, I think, where it starts for me because , in terms of all things perimenopause, I think my journey has been pretty chill.

[00:10:11] Kari Natwick, RD: And I hope somebody out h- here that's listening to that isn't "Oh my gosh," like I don't want that to arouse anything in women where this isn't fair because some women have a really hard time, although we have way more tools available to us now.

[00:10:23] Kari Natwick, RD: But, like, where this shows up for me in my story is that I am the woman who carries a lot of systems in my household. I carry it with my house, I carry it with all things kids' sports, my business. I carry it where I'm picking up the fundraiser that nobody else is picking up, and it's after, at a certain point that it is no longer an emotional load.

[00:10:48] Kari Natwick, RD: It's a physiological- ... one, right? And for me, because I use hair tissue mineral analysis and I look at minerals, I understand, how chronic stress becomes one of the biggest drivers of depletion at the level of minerals, at the level of adrenals, my thyroid even mitochondrial function. And when I started to feel the depletion in my own, like vitality.

[00:11:15] Kari Natwick, RD: And this is I think a word that women don't use enough when it comes to perimenopause. We're really looking at like specific symptoms in our body. But really like at the end of the day, the cost is vitality, right? And that's what I was seeing in me.

[00:11:30] Kari Natwick, RD: And so as I'm like moving through this phase of just feeling depleted, I'm feeling tired, I'm getting the 2:00 AM wake up more frequently. And then once vasomotor symptoms started I was like, "Okay, I have to do something about this." And meanwhile I think like it hit, like as I'm tracking because this is just my world and I love it, so I'm doing Dutch tests annually, I'm getting blood labs.

[00:11:57] Kari Natwick, RD: I know what's happening with my ovarian reserve, and I'm watching that go from, being somebody who's in like early perimenopause into like almost menopause over the course of about three years. So I'm actually like through labs monitoring this and tracking it in my body.

[00:12:14] Kari Natwick, RD: But I'm using a lot of herbs to support all of these underlying symptoms, or like not symptoms, but systems in my body. And so I feel like I've landed really softly with perimenopause. But it's only because of like of truly of the level of support that I've been able to give myself. So I don't have some big crazy wow story, but I felt it in- But you 

[00:12:36] Christa Biegler, RD: had the symptoms, yeah.

[00:12:37] Kari Natwick, RD: I 

[00:12:37] Christa Biegler, RD: had- You had awareness. 

[00:12:38] Kari Natwick, RD: Yeah. I felt it in like in just, I don't know, it was a vitality piece for me, and so- again, in my study of herbs, it's something that I've incorporated more and more into my life. And especially in the last year , when I did a training with the School of the Sacred Wild, one of the things we did was every single month we had four herbs that we would study.

[00:13:00] Kari Natwick, RD: And every night I would make an herbal infusion with a different herb that we were studying that month. And I was using, I was making a nettles infusion every single night because that's an adaptogenic herb. It's a mineral infusing herb, and it's just that herb is an ally for me that really connects to vitality, and it's a practice that I continue on honestly every, almost every single day, even now.

[00:13:26] Kari Natwick, RD: But as I was, like, starting to, I don't know, just become, I know this sounds a little flowery, but to develop relationships with all of these different herbs, I actually could feel the shift in my nervous system. I would feel much more regulated as I was moving through the day.

[00:13:43] Kari Natwick, RD: I would be sleeping better at night. I wasn't having vasomotor symptoms, that would were, like, popping up every once in a while. And like my blood sugar was more regulated, my adrenals felt better. Again, I'm tracking all of this in my labs because, again, I'm this person that's like living in these two different worlds of like this really, like I'm very steeped in clinical work, but I'm really looking at how do herbs really support me in this journey.

[00:14:09] Kari Natwick, RD: And anyway, at the end of all of this, like I'm now in late stage perimenopause, and once I started to see my labs my estrogen levels and my progesterone like really decline, which has just been happening in the last three to four months and I'm gonna be 50 this month,

[00:14:29] Kari Natwick, RD: Then I initiated hormone replacement therapy. Because I think and this is something that I believe is very controversial in the world of herbalists especially, not all herbalists, but there are many herbalists who believe that, herbs are the only thing you need to get you through perimenopause, and I'm just not one of those people that believes that is true.

[00:14:47] Kari Natwick, RD: There's many herbs that work really well early on in those early stages of like progesterone dropping, and as the estrogen is starting to become erratic and then slowly decline. Herbs can be really helpful in those time periods, but in terms of like actually like being those powerful constituents that will like replace hormone in the body- Yeah

[00:15:09] Kari Natwick, RD: Herbs won't do that. So now being on HRT, it's like I'm really grateful that's a tool that's available to me. I'm grateful that, Women's Health Initiative, NIH funded study that, was launched in 1991 that, now in November of 2025 it's taken that long for the FDA to remove the black box warning on, you know- It's true

[00:15:31] Kari Natwick, RD: on HRT, right? So for women going through perimenopause now, like we have so many more tools, and we can use herbs as a part of this. I use herbs even now, for things like nervous system and adrenal support and mineral support and lots of other things. And then, I'm also somebody who believes that if it feels right for you, that HRT when the time is right is an incredible tool, 

[00:15:54] Christa Biegler, RD: yeah. Of course we're very aligned, and This is the conversation we have not yet had in perimenopause month. We've talked a lot about HRT. Yeah. We've talked a lot about symptoms, but your story is, I think, a very reasonable story where it's, I'm seeing some of these symptoms happen.

[00:16:09] Christa Biegler, RD: I can see this trend over my body. I already know that you're an attuned individual. Yeah. And this makes sense, so I can't wait to talk a little bit more or dig into herbs and use of herbs. But before we go there, I think one of the things to clarify, and you've done it already a little bit in this story- But it's to clarify that perimenopause is not a symptom to treat.

[00:16:31] Christa Biegler, RD: And one of the reasons it may feel a little bit confusing is because I heard it in your language, this is completely the language I am using now, it is you support the system that is creating or the systems that are creating the symptoms overall. The symptoms just point you to a system.

[00:16:49] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. And when you support those systems, symptoms, are eradicated. And so perimenopause is not a system, It's a transition period in life this is how I think of it, any issues with them are getting amplified. don't know if that's the right way to say it, but that's what we see happening, is that if the systems underneath need support, then- You may have more things show up a little bit with perimenopause.

[00:17:14] Christa Biegler, RD: I'm curious if you would agree with that, or what systems do you see... what are some of the systems that are in the most distress as people enter perimenopause? And it's such a long period, so that's why it's a little bit ambiguous to talk about a little bit. I have some opinions about this.

[00:17:29] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. 'Cause when people talk about their symptoms, I'm like it sounds like we've got really congested drainage." 

[00:17:35] Kari Natwick, RD: Yeah. 

[00:17:35] Christa Biegler, RD: It sounds like- Yeah ... your adrenals have been crying for a while, right? And that makes sense. Yeah. I'm not better than anybody. I get to experience the same

[00:17:42] Christa Biegler, RD: I'm also a human, right? You're right ... the only thing I've got going is i've got some years of understanding those systems and what supporting those looks like. So tell us a little bit about, really the question here is why do some people coast in, and then some people are, like, just flatlined a little bit?

[00:17:58] Christa Biegler, RD: I do not know about you, but I feel the change of season is upon us. And for many people, it's back to school or back to work, or for me, it's back to focus. And I wanted to share a few tools that I'm using that might make this transition a little easier for you as well. Now, first of all, if you've got a kiddo that gets stressed or anxious about school or sports , and/or you just don't like taking supplements by mouth, have you tried this Mag Relief lotion from Jigsaw?

[00:18:25] Christa Biegler, RD: A lot of topical magnesium sprays burn, but this lotion has zero smell, zero burn, and it contains organic oils and my favorite kind of topical magnesium, which is OptiMSM. You can just put some on. Usually, it's gonna be legs and feet, but you can put it wherever you want on your body. Put some on after exercise, before bed to help with sleep and stress.

[00:18:45] Christa Biegler, RD: Another type of magnesium that I am adding to my rotation is these Brain Boost from Jigsaw. It's mag threonate, which means that it's the type of magnesium that crosses your blood-brain barrier to help with focus. And in studies, beyond focus, it also helps with deeper sleep, which then helps improve daytime alertness and reduce grouchiness.

[00:19:08] Christa Biegler, RD: So if you have not tried the Brain Boost mag threonate from Jigsaw, it might be helpful for getting back into the swing of things. That's what I'm gonna go ahead and try. And then finally, I am still drinking this very licious Electrolyte Supreme with a splash of sparkling mineral water on repeat. It's kinda like one of those sparkly energy drinks, but better for you because it's a combo of a multivitamin, vitamin B, minerals, and electrolytes without a vitamin flavor at all.

[00:19:40] Christa Biegler, RD: So in September, Jigsaw is giving Less Stressed Life listeners a special increased discount of 15% off any order as many times as you want with the code LESSSTRESS15. That's for the entire month of September. You can take 15% off with the code LESSSTRESS15, and they're sending out a free stainless water bottle to anyone with a new electrolyte subscription.

[00:20:01] Christa Biegler, RD: So if you miss the 15% off code in September, no problem. You can always get 10% off any order anytime with LESSSTRESSED10 as the code. As always, thank you so much for supporting this podcast and using our codes at jigsawhealth.com. 

[00:20:18] Kari Natwick, RD: Yeah. I think a lot of this, and there's a lot that, again, that we can use in the world of herbs around this, but, I think that as we're going through perimenopause, we get this drop in, progesterone. 

[00:20:32] Kari Natwick, RD: And then we get this drop in estrogen.

[00:20:35] Kari Natwick, RD: The adrenal glands are being asked to do a bigger job, right? They become a bigger source of DHEA and then, by extension, testosterone. So if a woman has been running on adrenal reserve for, I don't know, sometimes decades, like sometimes their entire life, right? And they're carrying now what their adrenal glands have been helping them to buffer for a really long time.

[00:21:00] Kari Natwick, RD: It's not just about ovarian aging, right? It's like how much reserve does she have left in the exact system that her body needs now, right? Because this drop in progesterone is so big for women. It impacts, and I know you have other people who have probably talked about this on your, during this month, but it impacts allopregnanolone, which is something that helps to calm the brain through GABA receptors.

[00:21:26] Kari Natwick, RD: And so when that starts to decline women start feeling very anxious for the first time in their lives. Some of my patients will describe it at "I don't even recognize myself," "I don't even feel like I have the same personality." They feel like perimenopause makes them feel like a completely different person in a way.

[00:21:45] Kari Natwick, RD: And then, estrogen also supports serotonin and dopamine activity. So then, we'll also start to see mood and mental clarity shift. And again we hear women in perimenopause talk about "I'm losing my mind," "I can't remember anything." And think it's important to understand that this is one of the neurochemical transitions, right?

[00:22:04] Kari Natwick, RD: And again, just to speak to some of the underlying systems, that are happening, right? And then when we get mineral depletion, what starts to impact things like fatigue, and then I don't know. I could kinda just kinda keep going on and on about all this stuff, but I just wanna share that as an example of something that is like it's like we have to be able to support ourself through this transition.

[00:22:31] Kari Natwick, RD: And again, we have amazing tools for this because, women deserve to feel good in this time, right? 

[00:22:38] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. I think part of it is probably segmenting depending on where people are in their perimenopause journey. Yeah. What they have going on, are they early or later is going to change.

[00:22:48] Christa Biegler, RD: And that was the beauty- Yes ... of you sharing your story is you hear how it has changed for you, right? Yeah. Where you started is not where you are now. And I think probably- Yeah ... one of the reasons that can end up a little bit confusing to people is because

[00:22:59] Christa Biegler, RD: It's not like everyone does this at age 40 to 45, because some people are starting at 35, some people are starting at 45. Yeah. So it just depends on, like, when you're at the beginning. So you just started talking about in early perimenopause. I always appreciate when people bring back the physiology.

[00:23:13] Christa Biegler, RD: Because the things that we see, the changes we start to see as our hormones start to shift there's a reason for them, right? I have had those emotional shifts where it's like- Why do I think everything my husband says this week is the stupidest thing- ... I have ever heard? Is this going to go

[00:23:32] Christa Biegler, RD: Is everything okay? Anyway, Relatability 101 here. Yeah. Anyway I've seen that, and then of course insulin resistance, yeah ... is something that can start to show up, and it may look like weight gain. It may also look like that erratic estrogen. So

[00:23:47] Christa Biegler, RD: let's just start one thing we did talk about on a different episode was the stages of perimenopause. I wanna say there was, like, two. She said, "Yeah, this is not enough." But let's just talk, let's start from the beginning, . the herbs for early perimenopause.

[00:23:57] Christa Biegler, RD: You already started with it, and I love how you talk about I think that no matter what, there's just not an excuse for getting experience something and play with something, and that was you with these herbs. It's oh, we're actually just gonna focus on a few to play with and experiment with.

[00:24:13] Kari Natwick, RD: Yeah. 

[00:24:14] Christa Biegler, RD: And- At a time ... yeah. That's all you can really do, and it's let me just try and see. This process will be a process, but let me see. Yeah. But it's a fun ... And so often we're used to herbs in a tincture or a capsule or something historically like that very often. But you're talking about an an infusion where it's just basically a very long tea steep, right?

[00:24:33] Christa Biegler, RD: Exactly. It's like- Yeah ... sometimes we forget that, it can feel much more like something you just do in your kitchen. You're just this wise- That's the beauty ... woman, right? Yeah. It's like I can just concoct something up for how I'm feeling right now to support myself. Exactly. So talk- 

[00:24:48] Kari Natwick, RD: That's the beauty of herbs, 

[00:24:49] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. Very simple. Yeah. Let me just go to the shop and buy some and have a few jars on the shelf and make an infusion. But let's talk about- Yeah ... herbs, Yeah ... for early perimenopause and why you would use them, et cetera. 

[00:25:01] Kari Natwick, RD: Herbs in perimenopause, again, just to go back to what I was saying earlier they don't replace what HRT does, right?

[00:25:07] Kari Natwick, RD: HRT delivers therapeutic hormone levels directly. Right? So herbs work through much smaller and more indirect mechanisms. They modulate receptors. They calm a pathway. They support a gland if the gland is still functioning, right? And So I think it's a very different category of intervention, and it's not like the same swap for every woman.

[00:25:37] Kari Natwick, RD: So we- ... can talk about herbs today, the truth is that every single woman, and if you steep yourself in the realm of herbalism, what we talk about a lot is as herbs as therapeutic interventions is we first evaluate somebody for their constitution.

[00:25:54] Kari Natwick, RD: And a constitution is, somebody, Like sometimes herbalists will look at this through the lens of Ayurveda. Are you a vata pattern? Are you pitta? Are you kapha? And then, there can be constitutions of things like there can be fire, there can be more air, there can be earth, there can be water.

[00:26:15] Kari Natwick, RD: So some people use elements. And then, some herbalists will look at this through the lens of does somebody need more astringency? Do they need more tonifying? When we're looking at what herbs are right for people, we're gonna look at this through the lens of somebody's constitution first, and then like you were just saying, we're

[00:26:36] Kari Natwick, RD: The next thing that we're gonna look at in terms of, staging is what stage of perimenopause is a woman in. So this is where labs can be really helpful, like testing ovarian reserve through like anti-Mullerian hormone. You can test follicular stimulating hormone. You can test your estrogen levels.

[00:26:57] Kari Natwick, RD: You can test your progesterone levels. You can do this in serum or in a Dutch test. So once you have a better sense of, just where a woman is in the process of perimenopause, that's where you can determine whether herbs or even whether HRT, is appropriate. And, just referencing my own story, I was watching that decline happening and kinda knew when that right moment of HRT initiation was appropriate for me.

[00:27:26] Kari Natwick, RD: But if a woman still is ovulating, there's some herbs that can be really helpful, especially early on. As progesterone is dropping, which is like that first stage of perimenopause but you're still ovulating one of the herbs just, as an example that I really, that can be really helpful for women is using vitex or chaste tree berry.

[00:27:49] Kari Natwick, RD: Because as long as there's g- as there's, like again, like some some l- some level of ovarian reserve, what chaste tree berry can do is it removes that prolactin-driven suppression of the corpus lutetium. Okay, so I know that sounds like it's very science-y, but what happens is like vitex or chaste tree berry can allow the body's own natural progesterone production to increase, and so that's an example of an herb that is, really safe to use in early perimenopause.

[00:28:23] Kari Natwick, RD: A woman might take that for, somewhere between three months to six months to see like the full fruition of how well it's working, it can help with all of the things like that dopaminergic effect. It can help with like sleep, right?

[00:28:39] Kari Natwick, RD: It can help with, some of the anxiety piece. It can help even with, if someone's starting to experience things like vasomotor symptoms like hot flashes or night sweats. Like this is an herb that can be a beautiful like introduction in that early phase. 

[00:28:56] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. I always think of this one as like the first line- 

[00:28:58] Kari Natwick, RD: It's like the first line

[00:28:59] Kari Natwick, RD: herb. 

[00:28:59] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. I always thought the mechanism was that it was like helping improve like brain-ovarian communication to continue to produce more hormone, which may still be accurate. You were just giving the next parts of that potentially. 

[00:29:13] Kari Natwick, RD: for sure. Yeah.

[00:29:14] Christa Biegler, RD: Okay. 

[00:29:15] Kari Natwick, RD: Yeah. 

[00:29:15] Christa Biegler, RD: So we've got Vitex as a first line therapy for early perimenopause.

[00:29:20] Christa Biegler, RD: Was that one that you ever experimented with when you were doing herbal class? Did you ever put that in an infusion?

[00:29:25] Kari Natwick, RD: No, I never put that in an infusion because that one is, it's more specific for, hormone imbalances. So that's not one that I would necessarily take, unless it was, like, clinically indicated. This also, dovetails with, what we were talking about earlier in, really supporting the terrain of the body. Some of the first herbs when I was, doing this class was the first herbs that we experimented with and, learned to develop a relationship with, number one was nettles.

[00:29:58] Kari Natwick, RD: That was actually the very first herb that we introduced. The others, because these are all very nutritive herbs- ... they're very mineral building herbs. The other one that I loved was burdock. It's, that nutritive mineral rich tonic. 

[00:30:14] Kari Natwick, RD: It's very grounding in the body.

[00:30:17] Kari Natwick, RD: It's also supportive for digestion. And I think like this is as I talk about herbs, like one of the things that I always marvel about is how, they don't just do one thing, in the body. Yeah. This is like the beauty of nature, and it's the beauty of- Yeah

[00:30:31] Kari Natwick, RD: like nature interacting with our bodies as nature is like they can do so many different things, right? So burdock can also like be supportive in our detox system. It, decongests our liver. It supports elimination in the body. It's, Supportive to our lymph system. So like I would fall in love with herbs like that.

[00:30:52] Kari Natwick, RD: I also I love like oat straw and oat tops, again, because it's a very mineral rich, very nourishing herb. It helps with like replenishment. And I think women in their 40s and 50s especially anything that is like replenishing to our tissue and anything that is healing to our adrenals or that is adaptogenic, again, that's like this overlap of what herbs do it can be very supportive for us.

[00:31:23] Kari Natwick, RD: And then the other thing that I think of, and I think about this, again, there's so many of my favorite herbs are heart tonics, and oat straw can actually be a heart tonic. I think of women as going through this transition of perimenopause, almost as we start to, decrease the amount of progesterone and estrogen, which are two hormones that keep us and this may not be true for every woman, but it was true for me, and it's true for I think for a lot of women that I work with, where like throughout much of our life, because we have estrogen on board, we are creating our life around the needs of other people. A lot of our lives and this is great in many ways, but, a lot of our lives is lent in service to the needs of others.

[00:32:13] Kari Natwick, RD: And oftentimes women- override our own needs, and we don't identify with our own needs. And I think women hit their 40s and their 50s, as these hormones start dropping and we start waking up to the fact that we have things we want to do. We want our lives, to look a different way, and I think that a lot of women hold grief, around that.

[00:32:40] Kari Natwick, RD: We hold grief around overriding sometimes the life that we wish that we would have lived. And, this is where there's a lot of herbs that can be heart tonics. Oat straw is one of them, hawthorn, rose. They can be very supportive in this time of this transition of kinda waking up and realizing that we get to be our own sovereign person, 

[00:33:07] Kari Natwick, RD: Yeah. Yeah. And That has actually been really helpful for me as I've gone through perimenopause, where I'm like, "Wow, there's a lot of my life that I have lived in service to others." And as progesterone and estrogen drop, I started to realize there's something that I'm holding in my heart as I attune to that.

[00:33:28] Kari Natwick, RD: And so when in the month that I was playing with cacao or, and developing a relationship with rose and rose hips and hawthorn berries, I was like, I could feel that I don't know, it was like a healing. Another herb that's really beautiful and really powerful for women in perimenopause is a herb called motherwort And

[00:33:49] Kari Natwick, RD: What is the Latin? It's like Leonurus cardiaca or something like that, and it means lion-hearted, and it's one of these herbs that helps to relieve anxiety. It reduces emotional irritability related to hormone changes. Can also be helpful for heart palpitations. It's a relaxing nervine, so it interacts with the nervous system, but it's emotionally it's supportive and it's one of the most powerful, in my education anyway, one of the most powerful herbs for grief.

[00:34:23] Christa Biegler, RD: Super interesting. So you started with nettles and burdock, and if you've been around the world of herbs or herbal medicine very long, these are very common friends. They're one of the most common. Nettles is a very easy tasting herb as an infusion as well, and burdock, you didn't start here, you ended here.

[00:34:40] Christa Biegler, RD: I always think of it... Because of we're all looking through the lens of how we saw things maybe first or most often. And so for me, burdock is one of the number one herbs that I think of for drainage and lymphatic detoxification overall. 

[00:34:54] Kari Natwick, RD: Yeah. 

[00:34:55] Christa Biegler, RD: But like you I love... feel this way about herbs and nutrients.

[00:34:59] Christa Biegler, RD: It's like they do 

[00:35:02] Kari Natwick, RD: a little bit of everything, 

[00:35:03] Christa Biegler, RD: right? They're all Swiss Army knives. It's like if you look up any nutrient or vitamin, you'll be like, "Is this a miracle?" It does so much. It's yeah, that makes so much sense. It's like these natural compounds that we need, but we don't always think of herbs are a very concentrated form the ones you started talking about, I'm gonna say it like this because it may not be true for all of them, but they're a very concentrated form of food, right?

[00:35:24] Christa Biegler, RD: That's true. And so we're getting- It's true ... I think we don't think about them as being really nutrient rich always as the first thing, depending on how we use them. And there's all these different classes which you've been alluding to here and there, right? Where it's like this is a nutritive herb, right?

[00:35:38] Christa Biegler, RD: Or this is a nervine herb, so it really impacts the nervous system. There's- Love this ... different types of classes overall. Yeah. Not like I'm an expert on them, but when people bring them up I'm like, I think that's a technical class, right? But we sometimes- Yeah ... when we're thinking about what's soothing of the throat or the stomach, right?

[00:35:55] Christa Biegler, RD: Mucilage herbs, et cetera. Yep, yep. And but bringing up this heart tonics is something I've never really considered in this way, so it's interesting. I know, it's like 

[00:36:02] Kari Natwick, RD: one of my favorite things. 

[00:36:04] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. So it's like What I hear from you is when you started playing with these I think this could be easily missed. In whatever was there. But it's because you were giving some respect to the herb and actually enjoying the process, it's almost like cooking and enjoying the food is a little different than simply just meeting caloric intake, right?

[00:36:27] Christa Biegler, RD: There is a little bit of a different energy that is exchanged. And I don't mean for it to sound so woo, but it's like it's how you conduct one thing is how everything is going. So it feels like it was this excuse to slow down and create a ritual as well. So it's like nice for the stress hormones, which is seems to be a really common thing that pops up whenever we're talking about perimenopause.

[00:36:50] Christa Biegler, RD: It's like that's really exacerbated in some way or another. Like you said, even with grief. And so that first class is really nutrient dense overall to restore. I feel like nutrients are very lost under that stress. But to restore that as you are making it this like beautiful ritual, and then you start to encounter these other classes, right?

[00:37:11] Christa Biegler, RD: So heart tonics, et cetera, which is different than we may think of with perimenopause. People might just say, "But Carrie, I just wanna sleep better and not have hot flashes," right? "I just want to feel like myself and not be so angry with somebody." Yeah. And those are valid things as well. So how would you start to reconcile...

[00:37:28] Christa Biegler, RD: I don't know if it's worth even going back to this piece, but sometimes I'm familiar with the constitutions and how we talk about things. I've always struggled to necessarily contextualize that for a client in that lens necessarily. Yeah. And I think there's a little bit of like a, "Oh, I'm intuitively picking this herb for someone potentially based on what I see in front of me."

[00:37:48] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. And I think that's how you can be as well. But how might you reconcile this share about some of these things or maybe even other classes with clients that are like, "Carrie, I'm really... Like this is what I'm experiencing." How do you start to connect those things for women really specifically and practically?

[00:38:06] Kari Natwick, RD: the ways that I connect, like, all of these pieces, right? When I work with women, I feel like I'm working with all of these invisible threads, right- ... of their lives. And I think in my experience in doing studies in herbalism and doing intensive, like, clinical studies in integrative and functional nutrition and integrative and functional medicine, it's actually all the same thing.

[00:38:31] Kari Natwick, RD: It's just using different language. And like for example if you have somebody who has, I don't know, like too much fire, right- ... in their constitution, which, that can show up as something like, let's just use the most basic example, as like heartburn, right? We're gonna use something that is like a demucilant herb. That's something that has that mucilaginous substance that will topically and internally soothe irritated, hot, fiery mucosal membranes and tissue. So that's gonna be something like marshmallow root or licorice root or slippery elm, right? This is a very basic example in the world of, digestive health, right?

[00:39:20] Kari Natwick, RD: So like functional medicine kind of has a different language for it, but herbalism has a different language, but it all means the same thing. 

[00:39:28] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah.

[00:39:29] Christa Biegler, RD: That's the one constitution that sticks out to me the most is the fire- yeah ... or heartburn version, 'cause there's usually a lot of anger and other things that we may not on the surface level think.

[00:39:39] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. But that's the main one that I'm most familiar with. 

[00:39:40] Kari Natwick, RD: And 

[00:39:41] Christa Biegler, RD: then, 

[00:39:41] Kari Natwick, RD: But I think for you, like you also connect to... 'Cause I hear you talk a lot about like the lymphatic system. That can be like a bogginess in the body, right? It's more of like that wet, like kind of slow constitution.

[00:39:55] Kari Natwick, RD: That's where as you're trying to support and improve lymphatic flow and support waste elimination that's where you might think of something like topically like calendula, or you might use something like cleavers or like things like that. I think that, again, like you have language for this and for constitutions and for identifying what people's needs are.

[00:40:18] Kari Natwick, RD: Like it's just a different language depending on what lens you're looking at it through. 

[00:40:23] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. Okay. So we started to talk about early perimenopause- Yeah ... really restoring nutrients and that's how your journey was as well. Yep. And then we got, we danced into this.

[00:40:34] Christa Biegler, RD: There's also potentially an entire emotional reckoning- 

[00:40:39] Kari Natwick, RD: There is ... 

[00:40:39] Christa Biegler, RD: that is happening in perimenopause that I always talk about this from the lens of this health triad. It's like we go about everything from this nutritional chemical angle, which is where herbs and nutrients live, and then the structural angle, which in this case might be, like, what's happening in your life?

[00:40:55] Christa Biegler, RD: What are we maybe gonna let go of or make room for? That's something I was really looking at. And then finally the other last section is what's the emotional and energetics? And I think- 

[00:41:04] Kari Natwick, RD: Yeah ... 

[00:41:05] Christa Biegler, RD: no matter what you're gonna end up dancing around to all corners regardless. Ex- yeah. So I'm glad you brought that up because I think until I started allowing that to be a more present role in my practice, it was unfulfilling in a way it was right? Yeah. 'Cause you think you're supposed to be in this one corner, but it's like, "Hey I can't help but notice this other thing happening as well."

[00:41:26] Christa Biegler, RD: So I think that's really interesting and beautiful. So we talked a little bit about the nutrients and minerals in early perimenopause, and then some of these like a heart tonic, which I've never really thought about it before, but you brought up, motherwort for heart palpitations and relaxing the nervous system overall.

[00:41:41] Christa Biegler, RD: Mid and late perimenopause, is there any changes, any other things that come to mind? I don't know if I'm right or wrong about this, but I feel we talked also about Vitex being an early phase thing because it's restoring that communication. And again, that's where we're talking about HRT, which I think is appropriate if for the right person.

[00:41:59] Christa Biegler, RD: But later on, is there anything else that comes to mind? The other thing I see in some blends is black cohosh, for example. Yeah ... i, there's other herbs there. Why do those get brought in? What other things come up for you or do you think of- Yeah ... as people progress into-

[00:42:13] Kari Natwick, RD: yeah, so so let's just kinda go through some of the lists of some of the more, like common herbs that are used specifically for symptoms in perimenopause and then ones that can be effective as you're, potentially bridging into HRT or not and that, could be, like, supportive as you're in late perimenopause into menopause.

[00:42:35] Kari Natwick, RD: So like black cohosh, let's just talk about that for a second. Like the evidence around that is really that it targets vasomotor symptoms. And there is actually really good evidence that it improves hot flashes, night sweats. For some women can be really helpful for headaches sleep disturbances, mood swings, fatigue, irritability you know all of that.

[00:42:59] Kari Natwick, RD: So it can be a really powerful ally for many women. Some women, and again this is where I think like women that are just trying to pull a bottle off the shelf or just buy like a perimenopause or like menopause, like herbal combination of things, I don't know, sometimes that kind of stuff doesn't work quite as well because there's a lot of things in there that you maybe don't need or maybe aren't working for you in the right way.

[00:43:23] Kari Natwick, RD: But black cohosh is something that can be really helpful for women with those vasomotor symptoms or for, like I said, like those other symptoms I recommended or I mentioned. You have to get the dosing of some of these things right too. So again, if you're buying black cohosh off the shelf of your local co-op or Whole Foods or whatever- one of the things to look for is that it, 40 milligrams is the standardized extract for black cohosh. So and that's a really effective dose for many women. The other things that can be helpful are herbs that kind of fall under this category of like phytoestrogenic, which like direct estrogen receptor binding.

[00:44:06] Kari Natwick, RD: And so that, like the ones that I think of that come to mind are things like red clover, any kind of soy isoflavones, alfalfa. Alfalfa is also very, nutrient rich. So those are things that I think about for that category which can be really supportive again as you're like kinda later perimenopause into menopause.

[00:44:28] Kari Natwick, RD: Just having anything that is, in that category of like phytoestrogenic herbs. When it starts coming in- going into like specific symptoms things like I know libido let's just say. 

[00:44:41] Kari Natwick, RD: The two that I love, number one maca. Maca is incredible for a lot of women.

[00:44:48] Kari Natwick, RD: It's also used for fertility, so I think, just, that's something to also know. But there's again like many like randomized control trial studies that show that it like really supports libido for women. And again, the dosage around that is 3.5 grams per day.

[00:45:07] Christa Biegler, RD: Just kinda hefty.

[00:45:09] Kari Natwick, RD: Yeah, it is. Like it's more than what you're gonna get in like a smoothie. If you go to like your local coffee shop and they offer maca something- which sometimes they do. The other thing about maca though is that it also has some adaptogenic qualities to it. And are we surprised that's connected to libido?

[00:45:27] Kari Natwick, RD: Probably not. But that's why I think like I don't see it everywhere, but when I see it that's something that it can be really supportive of. The other one, and this is a more of a Ayurvedic herb, is something called shatavari.

[00:45:41] Kari Natwick, RD: It is something that can really improve, energy and mood, but it also improves sex drive, and that's one I've used with a few women in my practice and they really love it. ... That one can be really effective. The other one, I don't wanna forget to mention this, is evening primrose oil, just because I think this is like a more commonly known herb for perimenopause.

[00:46:05] Kari Natwick, RD: So it contains gamma-linoleic acid which is that omega-6 fatty acid, and it's really helpful for vasomotor symptoms. And again, there's some studies around that, but that's one that I really love. Other vasomotor ones can be things like sage, ... mung bean extract.

[00:46:28] Kari Natwick, RD: Like some people will use like pine bark even for vasomotor. So those are herbs that I would say would be, used for different like phases of perimenopause into menopause, and then like some really like specific herbs for symptoms.

[00:46:44] Christa Biegler, RD: That's helpful. I want to highlight a few things. When you were talking about black cohosh, you talked about 40 milligrams, and then when you got to maca you said three and a half grams. So I just real note for our very intelligent listener, that would be 3,500 milligrams, right? So it's just, I'm just comparing that because I think one of the things is sometimes people will

[00:47:03] Christa Biegler, RD: Something that's a little bit of a travesty, and I'm not saying people have to go self-trial things, is just that I think it's very common to not do effective doses in general and then say- It is ... "That didn't work for me." Yeah. I'm like, "Oh. What did you do? 1/8 of what you should have done?" And I mean- Yeah

[00:47:17] Christa Biegler, RD: I just have to always question that. That's just like my personality to really question. Yeah. Did that work or was that really true? Was that really true, in the words- Yeah ... of Byron Katie. Yeah, I've used maca, and there is something about maca, though it needs to be... There's like a special...

[00:47:32] Christa Biegler, RD: What is the term? I'm like, it's failing me right now. There's like a special... You're supposed to have it Not cooked. Like you're supposed to not use raw maca or something like that. I forgot what this is. There's a term for it. I'm really butchering it terribly right now. Can you remember what I'm talking about?

[00:47:48] Kari Natwick, RD: I don't know exactly what you're talking about. I 

[00:47:49] Christa Biegler, RD: don't. Yeah. 

[00:47:50] Kari Natwick, RD: Sorry. 

[00:47:50] Christa Biegler, RD: I'm probably not giving a very clear, I thought there was like a very, do this kind of maca not... Anyway. Yeah. Maybe I shall find that and put it in the show notes. We'll figure it out. Yeah ... anyway, I'm familiar with shatavari.

[00:47:59] Christa Biegler, RD: I've not used it that I recall. And then sage and mung bean as well I've not heard of for hot flashes or night sweats, et cetera, so that's kind of fun. Yeah. It's always fun to hear about these different ones. Were there any other herbs that you enjoyed as part of your infusion? Yes. So we just kinda touched on the infusion thing, and that where I think people will take or leave this depending on where they are in their journey, what they, how they wanna interact with things.

[00:48:26] Christa Biegler, RD: But I think it can be good. I actually need this reminder all the time to come back to why can't I just make a really fun tea for overnight? When I go to bed I make a fun tea overnight. I put hot water on it, and the next day I just get to sip it all day. Sure. And I get a two for one benefit, 

[00:48:41] Kari Natwick, RD: and you can. Yeah. Exactly. That's the beauty of herbs, like you absolutely can. And I think like this is like for me as I have been on this journey with herbs, it's like the thing that I love about it is like a lot of herbalists they don't know how to dose things. They have a lot of knowledge. They have a lot of intuition that they bring into things, and when it comes to making things like infusions, like that's where you don't really need to be so specific- ... and it will still work. You know- ... if you're making something like a tincture and it's for a specific purpose, that can be different.

[00:49:15] Kari Natwick, RD: There are definitely different herbs for different purposes where dosing is really important. 

[00:49:21] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah, 

[00:49:21] Kari Natwick, RD: I agree. When it comes to things like probably one of my favorite categories of herbs are nervines and this is something we explored a lot over the last year. And many of these are really familiar to people, and many of them are in like calming teas and calming tea blends.

[00:49:39] Kari Natwick, RD: So it can be anything like obviously like chamomile and lavender, which are some of the most I think ubiquitously known and utilized herbs probably on the planet. But then there's things like linden which, again, when I started using linden like some people will call it honey in a cup.

[00:49:58] Kari Natwick, RD: And it's like it has this affinity for... And I think it was just like, an emotional support for me. The other one of my herbs that I fell in love with in the last year is lemon balm, also known as Melissa and some people will call this sunshine in a cup.

[00:50:14] Kari Natwick, RD: It's a very uplifting nervine. It also has some antiviral properties to it- 

... 

[00:50:20] Kari Natwick, RD: And it can relieve melancholy. But it's just, I love how I like, I drink it and I just notice a shift in my mood towards happiness and optimism. It's like I just feel this, like it's very uplifting. Other things, the other one that I absolutely love is passion flower, and I love it before bed because it has this mildly sedative kind of hypnotic property to it.

[00:50:48] Kari Natwick, RD: I also love motherwort for that, because motherwort is an herb that, it like it starts to play with your dream world. So when I would drink when I would put motherwort into a combination of lemon balm, maybe valerian or skullcap, and then I'll put a little rose and a little chamomile in it, and I just grab herbs from my cabinet, from my jars, and I put it into my little teapot here, and then drink that before bed, and I would feel so relaxed, and I would have the most amazing dreams.

[00:51:24] Kari Natwick, RD: And then sometimes I don't want to dream, so then I just leave motherwort out, so like those are some of my favorite nervines. Also, I love butterfly pea, which is those beautiful little blue, and kind of purply blossoms. This again is, has a lot of roots in Ayurveda, but it is anxiolytic.

[00:51:45] Kari Natwick, RD: It's an antidepressant. It is just very calming. It actually acts on that like GABA receptor- ... site in our brains. And then I didn't realize this before I started working in herbalism, but there's two different categories of nervines. So there's the nervines that are relaxing, and then there's nervines that actually help to support energy and focus and kind of work on- like cognitive support. So like before our conversation today, I made a tea that had peppermint in it and had a little slippery elm and DGL in it just to support my throat, but the peppermint awakens your nervous system without being stimulating. So it's this like cerebral tonic, and it helps with focus and concentration and alertness.

[00:52:34] Kari Natwick, RD: So it's like it's calming but like uplifting. And other very commonly known are things like gotu kola, Butterfly pea has that, can also have this like uplifting effect to it. Rosemary actually can awaken the nervous system without being stimulating. 

[00:52:56] Kari Natwick, RD: And I love putting rosemary into teas, which is something before I did herbalism, I just thought that was an herb you cooked with, but it's actually, has a, like a really like beautiful effect on the nervous system as well.

[00:53:09] Christa Biegler, RD: I always thought some rosemary sprigs in water... This is gonna make me wanna go out to the garden and pick some and do this, because it's been a hot second. And every time I'm out there picking herbs, I think Oh, I wonder if I'll transplant any of these inside this year. So putting rosemary in the water is incredible for the sinuses.

[00:53:28] Christa Biegler, RD: Both rosemary and not everyone would do that with peppermint. I do, but also peppermint just tastes so darn good. So good. Both peppermint and rosemary. But rosemary is incredibly opening for the sinuses. So I always think... That kind of happened accidentally. Sometimes at restaurants I would be, like, taking the sprig of rosemary off people's plates and putting it in my water, and then have it like that for three or four days.

[00:53:47] Christa Biegler, RD: It was- It's 

[00:53:47] Kari Natwick, RD: so good ... good. Yeah. It's so good. So good. Yeah. So 

[00:53:50] Christa Biegler, RD: I like thinking about this like this, and I can hear the love oozing out of you as you're- I know ... talking about it. It's may your cup be filled with lemon balm. Oh, yeah. A little sunshine in a cup. I know. I am a lover of several of those, sometimes we get something at the right time.

[00:54:08] Christa Biegler, RD: This week I had for the first time really ever, . and I think I know the cause of this, but I was, I'm like, "These must be heart palpitations." 

[00:54:16] Christa Biegler, RD: All night long, and it's like it didn't impact things, but at the same time like, "I think I've got some motherwort.

[00:54:22] Christa Biegler, RD: I shall go make some fun tea-" Yeah ... and just see, right? Yeah. Just see for fun. It's like- 

[00:54:27] Kari Natwick, RD: Yeah ... 

[00:54:27] Christa Biegler, RD: I'm pretty calm about it. I'm just like that's interesting." 

[00:54:30] Kari Natwick, RD: And I think that's a great approach. I think you just be calm about this. I think you just... and, much my journey in the last year you're gonna find herbs that, I don't know, you're just kinda "Eh, that one just- Yeah

[00:54:40] Kari Natwick, RD: I don't really feel a connection to that herb." But if you- 

[00:54:43] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah ... 

[00:54:43] Kari Natwick, RD: find the right one that works in the right way and is at the right time, like you said, there's just, it's magic. 

[00:54:51] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. Yeah. I'll mention two things about being able to approach something calm. I've gone through the experience of not approaching things calm, and it's okay.

[00:54:58] Christa Biegler, RD: That's degrading the whole purpose in the first place. Yeah. So there's some experience around that, and that's okay. This is a narrative I'm sharing, right? And the other one is like, everything's gonna be fine. I lost my train of thought on the other side of it. But it's just like everything is going to be fine and there's always options for everything.

[00:55:15] Christa Biegler, RD: Exactly. Like- Yeah ... it's just, it's oh, here's a new- Yeah ... thing to be intrigued about. Yeah. I guess there's some familiarity, right? Because I've heard it from clients, et cetera. So it's like- 

[00:55:27] Kari Natwick, RD: Yeah ... 

[00:55:27] Christa Biegler, RD: it will 

[00:55:28] Kari Natwick, RD: be okay. And, and I think that's a thing about perimenopause, right? Is like it is not gonna stay the same.

[00:55:34] Kari Natwick, RD: Like it's always going to be changing. You're always going to have to be adapting and pivoting, and a new symptom I don't even like to call them symptoms necessarily. I know. But like a new signal in the body is going to, could pop up at any time, and it likely, if your nervous system is dysregulated or you're feeling really stressed or you don't have that foundation of minerals, it's going to feel more pronounced, and it's probably gonna feel worse, right?

[00:56:01] Kari Natwick, RD: If you don't have good blood sugar regulation, if you're not sleeping well, it's like- everything is gonna feel worse- Yeah ... as you're going through these transitions. 

[00:56:10] Christa Biegler, RD: You reminded me of the word that had slipped my mind, which is really capacity, right? It's oh- Yes

[00:56:15] Christa Biegler, RD: I've been building capacity for a long time, and so all of this is gonna... Everything sounds sucky if your capacity sucks, right? Totally. And so it's, I think of my simple analogy for capacity, it's as good as I've got right now, is if the plate is full, you can't jam any more stuff on the plate sometimes.

[00:56:29] Christa Biegler, RD: So we were talking before about life is a process of deletion. You know- Yeah ... just really physically I've been telling people, I'm like, apparently I collected things for the last two decades, and now I am going to release things into this next decade, yeah. 

[00:56:41] Kari Natwick, RD: Exactly. 

[00:56:42] Kari Natwick, RD: And I think that's what kind of what happens in perimenopause.

[00:56:44] Kari Natwick, RD: Yeah. Yeah. We collect, we care, we give. 

[00:56:47] Kari Natwick, RD: And then we get to the point in our life where we're like, "What the hell am I doing?" Yeah ... why am I doing all of this? Like, why am I driving myself into a state of depletion? Like, why have I- Yeah ... disconnected myself from what my true passion is, from my true purpose?

[00:57:01] Kari Natwick, RD: And this is where I think we can gain a lot of clarity in this- ... rearranging time of our life. 

[00:57:09] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah, and I think our body will continue to get louder if we- Yeah ... do not take heed or we're disconnected to hearing it. That's, I think that's what we see, right?

[00:57:18] Kari Natwick, RD: Yeah. 

[00:57:18] Christa Biegler, RD: And experienced and seen. 

[00:57:20] Kari Natwick, RD: Yep. 

[00:57:20] Christa Biegler, RD: Is there anything that you want to tell women before we wrap today? Any other, anything you wanna share? Besides where people can find you online, which is the second question. But really, is there anything you wanna leave women with today that are listening to this and saying, "Oh, this is a really interesting take, on perimenopause.

[00:57:37] Christa Biegler, RD: I hadn't thought about it like this before."

[00:57:39] Kari Natwick, RD: I think, I kinda wanna just go back to, I think, what I said at the very beginning, which is that Perimenopause is not your body falling apart. I really think women need to hear that a lot. And it's like this is your body rearranging, right? 

[00:57:55] Kari Natwick, RD: And that for one of the new paradigm shifts that I think we've been talking about today is This isn't Whac-A-Mole, and this isn't a conversation about HRT or not HRT. In my opinion, the best way to move through perimenopause is to track your hormones and know where you are in the phase of this journey, because it can be a 10-year process. And just keeping a bead on this, every year as you're going through the process will teach you to know how to support yourself, right?

[00:58:31] Kari Natwick, RD: And that in this rearranging, there's so many things that we can do as women that are supportive. Both using herbs, using other modalities, using nutrition and food as medicine, supporting ourselves with our blood sugar. But, using herbs as emotional allies, as heart tonics, using herbs to support digestion, using herbs to support hormones, to support our nervous systems.

[00:58:59] Kari Natwick, RD: These are some of the things that we can really do that, like you said, if we don't, it's just gonna get louder. 

[00:59:05] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. 

[00:59:05] Kari Natwick, RD: Yeah. I think those are like the summary of the big takeaways of what we've been talking about today. 

[00:59:10] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. And you've got so many things you can play with and have a little bit of fun if you want to.

[00:59:15] Kari Natwick, RD: Absolutely. Yeah. You can have a good time with it. Don't take it too seriously, for sure. 

[00:59:19] Christa Biegler, RD: Kari, where can people find you online? 

[00:59:21] Kari Natwick, RD: Okay. So you can find me online on my website, which is GutBrainRD. So it's just https://www.gutbrainrd.com/. And when you get to my website, that will take you to all the other ways that you can stay in touch with me.

[00:59:37] Kari Natwick, RD: One of the things I want people to be aware of is I've just started to offer a small group program. I call it the Wise Woman Era, because that is what stepping into perimenopause is. If you're interested in having, some support from me in a group setting around perimenopause, that's a great place.

[00:59:57] Kari Natwick, RD: It's a really fun group. It's like we get to hang out with a bunch of women in perimenopause and just, spill all the tea about it. And really learn how to support yourself in a way that's individualized. I also have a private podcast. And again, if you go to my website, you'll see the link to that.

[01:00:13] Kari Natwick, RD: I call it Deeply Nourished. It's a five episode podcast that you can just get to know me better, get to know a little bit more about how I work with people and my philosophy. And then of course, if you wanna work with me one on one, there's a place where you can apply to do that on my website as well.

[01:00:32] Christa Biegler, RD: Cool. Thank you so much for coming on today, Kari. 

[01:00:34] Kari Natwick, RD: Yeah. Thanks for having me.